The BXR was more effective if mastered. BXB was something noobs did because they weren't skilled enough to master the BXR. Still, it was pretty nice to have button glitches to separate the good players from the pros. The Halo 2 style gameplay needs to make its return in Halo 4, but if Reach can be improved for what little time is left for it, that'd be great. I'm still moving on to Halo 4 right when it releases. Even at its best, Reach still can't be better than Halo 2. An exploitation that somehow ended up making Halo 2 even better than it was. Bungie may not have intended it, but the BXR turned out to be a great glitch and it needs to return. But that's just my opinion. Go protest on 343's forums if for some reason you disliked the BXR. It's a somewhat common suggestion over there, and 343 would be smart to take it. We're getting off-topic. It may be best to take it to a PM from here.
I think most people first person shooter games expecting it to be based on aiming and tactical stuff, not based on the ability to mash button combos like in street fighter and that sort of game. At least I do. If 343 decides to add anything like that in Halo 4 or a title update without the ability to toggle it, I won't be buying the game or every playing Reach again. I guess it's probably futile trying to argue this with someone whose username is 4shot and who uses the MLG logo as his avatar.
Genuinely disappointed to see you post that. Whether something improved the competitive level of the game by design or by accident is irrelevant, what's important is merely whether it did improve said competitive level or not. Overall I'd say the BXR wasn't too bad, I agree with 4shot in the sense that it did take skill to master and the BXB was the really stupid one. However, I still think we're better off overall with both gone. The BLB in CE wasn't as obtrusive due to weaker melees and a lack of lunge, and other combos like backpack reload were nice. Glitches aren't inherently bad, but the H2 ones aren't something I'd particularly like to see return. Btw 4shot, you know there is effectively a BXR glitch in Reach, right? Its just harder and can only be performed on host.
I've done it off host before, requires an extra push of the Y-button and slightly altered timing. Back in January when I was not terrible, I could have pulled it off 1/5 times and piss people the **** off xD
Difficult but necessary combos in any game are absolutely retarded, fighters included. The controls should help you accomplish what you want to do, not stand in your way and make you mess up occasionally because your muscle memory is not robotic yet. Winning or losing in games should be based on what you decide to do and when you decide to do it.
I've always compared button inputs in fighting games to aiming in fps games. Both take time to master and this skill transcends games in their respective genres. It doesn't really add to the argument, I just read this, and really wanted to draw this parallel. And I dont think button combos are bad, it's just that it's not stated anywhere in the game, so it cannot be treated as an equal playing field for all...
It's not an even parallel though. Twitch aiming ability paired with strafing to throw off your opponent's aim and at the same time predicting your opponent's strafe and tracking it with your reticle provides a nice smooth skill curve of how long you practice versus how good you get. In a perfect shooter, there would never be a cap on that curve. It's an endless source of skill gap between players at the top level because it involves prediction and trying to throw off your opponent's prediction. With button combos, there's no such endless upward curve. It's just a plateau that merely separates the newbies from the competent players but does nothing to separate the best from the second best. Fighting game tournaments are won and lost by out-predicting and countering your opponent in time spans measured by the frame rather than by the second, not by pulling off difficult moves.
That is all dependent on the specific game you are playing, games like smash bros melee and BlazBlue are two of the best examples of endless skill. While streetfighter and tekken are all about opponent reading and frame specific combos.
I don't pretend to be an expert on fighters. I don't even play them, I just pick up stuff in my wanderings through the internet. I do know that the best players can all perform the combos equally well though, thus rendering them irrelevant to who wins the tournament. Aim ability is a legitimate contributor to the high level skill gap though. That's the whole PC vs Console argument after all, that theirs take more skill because they require unassisted twitch skills in addition to the strafing and strafe prediction that console shooters also have. I'm not interested in having that grossly off topic PC/Console debate here, I just use it to illustrate my point that something like the BXR is a barrier to accomplishing what the player wants to do and it creates a fake skill gap. It's merely a plateau that you must climb to the top of in order to be competent at the game, but it feels like a skill gap because online you get to dominate incompetent players who have yet to master it.
It let you melee, tap X, then finish them off extremely quick. You tap B for melee, X to cancel the animation, then either B for the second melee or R for an expeditious shot.
B is the melee button. Both of those were button combos that gave you a nearly instant kill any time you were able to get into melee range. People who had mastered them were able to use them to utterly destroy people who had not, which was fun for them. Now those people want the combos in Reach or Halo 4 so that they can continue instantly destroying people online any time they get into melee range. Also, it took a long time to get your muscle memory all robot-like so you could do them nearly 100% of the time, leading to the false belief that they created a skill gap.
I don't use Armor Lock, but my God people need to stop whining about it. The only thing this game needs is a huge advancement in gametype options, at least to the point of having all of the gametypes and options that accompanied Halo 3. Like honestly? WTF is with the not being able to set the "Next" zombie? Or set it so the round ends on the zombie death? These are things that have already been made, just freaking put them in the gametypes, minimal programming, make many people very happy, people buy your next game, simple stuff. [br][/br]Edited by merge: Dude, all I have to say is, go try to play online Smash Bros Brawl... I used to play competitively, and I was decent for a beginner. I got good enough that I can pretty much destroy average players without getting hit more than once or twice. However, you play against them and you don't know what to do. I played a guy playing diddy kong, he used one of the weakest moves in the game by throwing a couple of bananas at me the entire game and I'm pretty sure I didn't hit him a single time on his way to killing me thrice. Those people are insane.
That was pretty much exactly the point I was making from the post before the one you quoted. Fighting games aren't about who's better at combos, they're about everything else while the combos are basically just a barrier.
Exactly this. Specially in Halo, Controller is meant to translate what you want your spartan to do as quick and easily as possible. The Controller isn't meant to have glitched button combos like BXB BXR that if you don't know the combo you can't use them and if you do know the combo you have to memorize the button combos because they're not logical. During a fight you shouldn't be thinking should I press B then X then R or should I press B then X then R so I can have an advantage, You should thinking should I shoot him in the face or punch him and what distance away from him should I be to have an advantage.
Ladnil, I agree with you that the obsession people hav with the H2 glitches is unwarranted and counter productive, but I do think you're over simplifying their nature, both in terms of halo and fighting games. The idea that all pro level players are equally able to perform the glitches isn't true. It has merit in terms if how close they are, but its still a defining factor in wins/losses in some cases. There was that famous example posted on the MLG forums a while back in the 'most clutch moment ever' thread, I think it was street fighter 2, where one guy was on pretty much no health and his opponent lands a special move, only for him to block every single incredibly fast hit of that move, turn around and pull his own combo to win. You can tell from crowd reaction that no one in the venue, least of all his opponent, expected him to pull it off. Obviously this isn't the case every match, far from it, but it can be, so I think your idea of it being a fake skill gap isn't quite true. I do agree that its closer to a binary thing than aiming skill, but there's still an element of skill curve there. A big part of why it's less dynamic than shooting is that the most focused on glitches are CQC in nature, and in that sense at least they're spicing up something that's already pretty dull and lacking in skill gap. Also, non combat ones like backpack reload add a little to the mental game. Its not always the best idea to backpack reload, thus an element of awareness and prediction is rewarded in corrrectly deciding whether to do so or not. It should never be the deciding factor in a games overall skill curve, but can add something if done right and not too obtrusively. Even in H2 it wasn't the deciding factor, though still a little too prominent imo, but I think the difference made by stuff like no lunge and weaker melee when competing the BLB and BXB is reasonably significant.
@Pegasi I don't even fully understand what backpack reload is or how it is done, so I can't comment on that. If the "skill" involved is more than the player's ability to press buttons properly like the BXB is, then I'm probably ok with it as a game mechanic and I think the controller should assist the player in performing it rather than impede him as with other combos.
Yes, massive necrobump, but this is the best place for it, really. Why You Should Care About Halo: Reach's Title Update - Xbox 360 News at IGN
No more sword cancel. Armor lock energy depleted by damage received while in lock. No more sticky rejection by going into AL. Bloom tweaks. Melee bleed. SWOON.