Those who know me as a forger can easily comment on my preferred map style - Infection. Specifically, journey style infection maps that take after the gameplay that Left4Dead introduced. In other words, there's a linear path for the humans to progress along, often blocked for certain periods of time, and often ending in some form of safe house or evacuation. However, there seems to be much disagreement about what is preferred in these maps when they're recreated in Halo. So before I release my most worked on map, I'd like to hear from the community what is preferred and what isn't. Below is a list of features that seem to be debated with these maps. If you respond, either state which option you like better, or explain why you like it better. The more replies the better - it's incredibly appreciated. HUMAN STRENGTH Should humans die in 4 hits? Less than 4? More than 4? Should humans be able to be killed instantly via assassination? Should betrayal damage for humans be turned on for realism? Or is the damage associated with the feature not worth the realistic aspect that comes with it? ZOMBIE STRENGTH Should the zombies die (from full health) in a single melee strike or multiple? Or, should the humans not deal melee damage? Should the "tank" infected have more shields or deal more damage? Or perhaps both? Should the initial zombie count be four? Higher? Lower? MAP DETAILS Given that the common power weapons in these maps are grenade launcher, shotgun, sniper rifle, and rockets, how many of these is "too many"? Which are better to place on a map than others? Which are more fun to use? Which are more balanced? Given that it's a four minute game, what would be the ideal amount of health packs? Should players ever have to crouch to access an area? Should the infected be able to reach particular areas before the humans can? What is the most time that a human should have to hold out at one area?
Humans: Same as slayer settings. Starting weapon: anything but shotguns... Zombies: Weak, non regenerating shields and/or headshot immunity. Damage resistance 150. Speed 150. [br][/br]Edited by merge: Also, are there covie weapons on the map or only human?
Now when you say "journey" maps are you referring to maps like Omega Journey on Foundry or the new journey maps that appeared on Sandbox in the months before Reach came out? Omega Journey type maps was the most common form of "Fat Kid" maps and when you died... you became a one-hit kill zombie. Very annoying game type when kids would betray you on purpose. New-gen Journey games were a little more fun. Alpha zombie was same speed as humans, but started a full hallway behind the humans and the map was basically an obstacle course. Everyone had one life and alpha zombie could only be assassinated. Made for some interesting games... but annoying as hell when everyone else was getting in my way in narrow spaces. I much prefer the new-gen journey maps... games end quicker, so being a zombie isn't as painful.
It's Left4Dead style - comparable to Manifest (Help's on the Way, Right?) or Rifte's series. It's purely human weapons as realism is a large part of it. Multiple hits are needed for humans to make it successfully to the end, as well as adding to the intensity of gameplay (slowly watching your health drain down, eventually knowing that you're only a single strike from death).
I put line breaks in so it doesn't look like such a wall of text. Four hits makes humans almost invincible especially if you have healthpacks on the map. One hit means there is no room for error and gets rid of the option to use healthpacks as an incentive. Two or three is good. Instant kill via the normal backsmack is optional, but the full assassination should always be a one hit kill because going for the assassination allows other humans to potentially save the person being assassinated and punishes those humans who don't watch out for their surroundings. Betrayal damage depends on who's playing. In a really competitive environment it's important, but for more casual games where people are just messing around, one griefer can easily ruin the game for everyone else. Humans should always be able to melee, usually having a one hit kill against all but the tank, because they need to have a chance to conserve ammo or at least survive after running out of ammo. The tank should generally have more health and/or shields otherwise it will just die like the normal zombies. The tank can also have more damage or a gravity hammer to damage multiple humans at the same time. Remember the tank must have some distinguishing factor whether color, shields, or speed. Speed or shields are preferable because it doesn't make it too obvious to the humans and someone generally needs to call out "tank." The initial zombie count depends on the gametype, but should never be less than two in case one zombie is terrible at the game. Power weapons usually aren't all that powerful because even if you wipe out an entire wave of zombies with the rocket launcher, you can only do that a few times. Power weapons give humans a chance against an organized herd of zombies that they could not normally kill with regular weapons, but power weapons are inefficient against individual zombies. Healthpacks depend on how many people are playing the game and how fast they are taking damage, but there should usually be a few along the way. Crouching slows down the game. Humans may have to crouch to take a shortcut that would then speed up the game but they should be able to get to that area without crouching. Because their main advantage is speed, zombies should never have to crouch. Allowing infected into an area before humans is sometimes good so they can set up traps to catch those who aren't wary of corners. Usually, however just giving zombies access to catwalks and such so they can get ahead of the humans even it the area opens to both at the same time works fine. Always be sure zombies have ways to surprise humans from catwalks or sewers. In the interest of making the game move quickly, humans should get to move on right when people start to run low on ammo or either side starts to get bored. Zombies have the best chance when humans are being forced to move so they should never stay long in one place. I really love what Rifte's done with the journey style infection gametypes. If feels more like a normal infection game with movement rather than just running away and shooting a little as you go. You shouldn't try to copy that but it's a good place to start.
Based on what you posted, I'd say: Humans -Take 2 or 3 hits to kill, friendly fire off, especially if there are automatic weapons and explosives -Assassinations possible Zombies -Can survive multiple melee attacks from humans -Initial zombie count at 25%-40%, so four to about six -Have enhanced 50m or so radar enabled 'Tank' Zombie -Non-regenerating shielding, enhanced damage Map Details -two to four power weapons on map, from shotgun to GL to sniper to rockets by personal preference -six health packs in intervals of two -crouch areas used sparingly -infected reach areas quicker, holdout times should be short I can explain in detail and support this theory on XBL at a later time if you want, but not till Wedesday.
Thanks for the responses - those are exactly what I'm looking for. I like your logic behind the assassinations - Currently that's how it's set up so I'll definitely keep it that way. Humans start with AR's which exacerbates the friendly fire. Originally it was added for realism, but in order for teamwork to be a focus, as well as to keep the infected as the primary threat, I'll turn that off. In this case, gameplay is more important than realism. At the moment it's set so that the tank can take about twice as much damage as a normal zombie, but does the same damage. However, this isn't true when the grenade launcher is in use, as it automatically takes down the tanks shields, which makes it a valuable power weapon. Contrasting this, however, is the close range nature of the map, making it difficult to correctly time the shot. As it is now, there's a total of three healthpacks on the map, and given a full party, about 4 humans make it to the end. One health-pack is at each of the two holdouts (one holdout is optional, it's a safe haven that appears half the time), and there's one health pack halfway between the safe havens. This brings up another question; If an average of four humans make it to the end, should it be more difficult? There's also one of each of the aforementioned power weapons in the map. The grenade launcher is accessible during the first holdout, the shotgun is right after that. The sniper is before the holdout/safe haven and the rockets are in the final area. The crouching is only a necessity for elite models; is it detrimental to gameplay? The reason I ask is that when reading a post from the review hub on a similar style of map, there was feedback mentioning how since zombies could get to areas before the humans, they could camp there. However, at the same time, I see that as contributing to realism since the area is supposedly overrun by zombies. As for the last comment pyro, I got the idea to make this kind of map when Left4Dead initially came out. I was going to make something in Halo 3, but then Manifest gained incredible notoriety and I decided I wouldn't want my map to be known as some attempt to copy that. So I started planning a new map before Reach came out. I finished it, but had yet to test it when Rifte's map came out. Unfortunately, this means that this kind of map will always be associated with those, despite the distinct differences. And Scorch, if you remember it, the map this is most relevant to is Nightlife. If not, I can give you a detailed run-through on Wednesday.
Screw elites. That falls under the category of you're an idiot for playing as an elite. When you make the custom gametype, use one downloaded from MM that doesn't allow elites. You should probably have a few health packs midway so it's not just like a prize at the end. Grenade launchers are nice because they don't allow a quick follow-up shot, but are powerful enough to kill or heavily damage a group of charging zombies. No two infection maps are the same. Making a good one is so difficult that to even copy someone else's is worthy of praise (assuming the copy is good).
**** you, I like Elites. Let people play as them if they want, maps aren't that hard to adjust for Elites. Anyway, on topic, I'm sticking with what I said earlier. Shields/more health/headshot immunity (or no instant-kill headshots) to give zombies a fighting chance, and then keep mostly everything else the same. Maybe give them poor camo. For humans: normal settings, barring shields.
I actually prefer instant kill headshots to make the Magnum, DMR, and Needle Rifle power weapons because otherwise there's not much of an advantage for other weapons over the Assault Rifle people usually spawn with. If you have headshots on, please do not give humans any headshot capable weapons on spawn.
*I think 3 hits to kill a human seems ideal to me. *Having assassinations enabled depends on whether humans have radar or not.If there is a radar, I'd say yes. It provides an extra dimension for humans. Of course, it also depends on the map and how much time it takes for a zombie to become visible and then attack a human. *I think its less fun to have to worry about team-shooting in Infection. Also, it is a FFA game, so team shooting would technically be giving the betrayer (?) an advantage. *A human's melee should be a last resort. Slightly effective, but it shouldn't be able to save someone who a zombie has pinned down. You should use more testing for this part to make sure you have the ideal amount of damage set. *A tank to me has increased shields, increased damage, but reduced speed. The humans should see the zombie with decreased speed and say "Oh ****, we need to kill this guy!" *4 is a good zombie starting count. *I'm not experienced with power weapons in infection, just don't go overboard (obviously). Also, a turret would also be a nice power weapon, assuming your map isn't based around a lot of long hallways. I think just placing ARs and DMRs as weapon caches with maybe about 3 power weapons on the map is rewarding to the humans. It gives the theme of 'conserve your ammo.' *I think you should them in packs of say 2 or 3, usually right before a place where you plan to have a holdout area. *The problem with crouching is that it can be frustrating for zombies to have to kill someone who is behind a 'crouch door.' *I think having the infected attack from both in front of and behind the humans make the game more exciting. *If you have 4 minutes for the map, I'd say 45 seconds would be the best for a holdout. This means you can have 4 holdout areas, and then 1 minute used for moving between areas.
Headshots are on, there's two single clip DMR's and one double clip Magnum. AR start. I'm still managing to toggle with the melee settings. Full health, a zombie takes two melees, but as soon as even the slightest amount of fire is added, they'll die in a single melee. Most people seem to agree that 4 hits is too much, so I'll have to lower that as well. The tank, despite raised shielding still is a limited threat at the end so I'll remove the rocket launcher and raise the shielding slightly (I wasn't much of a fan of Rifte's instant kill tank, so I'm staying away from that). At the moment the wait time is about 45 seconds for the mandatory holdout. However, it's rather simple to survive at first due to the fact that the zombies spawn mid-way down a long street. Once again, this prompts another question, what cover could be placed in the middle of a street (vehicles are out of the question, the budget does not support it)? As reference: Spoiler And, one more question, should healthpack be placed in logical places (military stations, bathrooms, etc.) or places where they're easily seen? Or perhaps a mixture of both? And as a side note - Does the Gunner Only setting not apply to falcons?
Cover in the street...a broken barricade? Parts of a building fallen? Overhead road sign? Just a few ideas.
I think falcons for some reason consider the gunner a driver. Health packs should be in some logical place people will see them. If in a run down area, strewn on the ground near some barricades or sandbags works well. If you allow zombies to teleport to or spawn on rooftops, then the situation of cover will mostly resolve itself. Sometimes it may not be desirable for zombies to have access to the entire map from the start using rooftops, but there should be some sort of catwalks for the zombies to drop down on humans.
Humans should be given health that can withstand three hits from a Zombie. If you give them four or more hits, they would become tedious to kill without making the Zombies overly powerful. If you set them up to take one or two hits, the zombies would become overly powerful in the worst kind of way. Humans would have either no need for Health Packs or too much of a dependance on them to survive (also, I've personally found three-hit kills to be the perfect balance of punishing Humans for mistakes and allowing them a chance at reprieve through good teamwork). Assassinations add to the teamwork-oriented aspect of a good Infection game. In Left 4 Dead (the ideal team-based journey game) a single Human could quickly be overrun on his own. If he didn't have teammates who could watch his back, he would soon find himself respawning in a closet. In Halo you can only emulate this feeling to a certain extant. By adding in assassinations, you can help emulate the feeling to its fullest potential by forcing Humans to stick together, watch their back and shoot off Zombies pestering teammates. Never turn on friendly fire. I can't fully understand what kind of gameplay benefit it would have on a game. There are the obvious problems associated with trolls and griefers, but there are also more subtle issues such as Humans not wanting to cover each other due to a chance of bringing more harm than good. In my opinion, disabling friendly fire is an improvement that brings about a more teamwork-oriented game that puts more of a focus on the Zombies as your main opponents. Melee striked are a valuable alternative to normal fire. By denying someone this tool, you essentially have to shove spare ammo down their throat to keep the game balanced. If you leave this tool in play, you'll get a lot more freedom in being able to limit ammunition and create "droughts" for the Humans. The basic melee is weak enough to prevent Humans from wanting to use it. You cannot kill zombies at range as they chase you, limiting your effectiveness against large swarms. If you take on a zombie and manage to temporarily block his sword you will still lose some health (valuable losses when non-regenarating health comes into play). Also, the tank. The Tank should usually only be given a stronger damage resistance. Assuming the usual zombies are fairly weak (The Sewers-style), the Tank should be given about four times as much health. A large group of Humans are needed to take down a Tank; He is no pushover and anything short of absolute focused fire should result in at least 1-2 human deaths. The Tank is when the teamwork and coordination of the Humans is tested. It is a balancing point that can decide the outcome of a game based on how well the humans do (think of it as raising the skill gap). An overtly weak Tank might as well not exist; he isn't testing anything. One more note about the Tank: You should only give the Tank heavily heightened damage resistance as opposed to any shielding (headshot immunity is a must for this). By giving the Tank additional shielding, you run the risk of allowing for the retardly simple EMP-Headshot combo (if not that, the EMP-and-five-additional-bullets combo). I don't give a rat's ass how difficult it is to pull off. If it happens, the zombies will have instantaneously lost their most valuable asset of the game. Where's the teamwork in that? It's literally just one guy getting a lucky shot with the Grenade Launcher and then following up with half of an AR clip. All of the planning the Zombies could have put into the Tanks rush, wasted. And don't even tell me you plan to compensate for that by giving him the strength to resist a full EMP. He will have the unkillable power of a god when fought with any other weapon. Again, teamwork = useless in that situation. Also, don't give the Tank heightened damage settings. Even with perfect teamwork on the part of the humans, a fast-kill Tank can gather many unfairly easy human deaths. This isn't balance, this is an artificial way of overcompensating for zombies that lack in decent killing power. As for Zombie Count, don't shoot for a particular number. I've found that 25% of the game lobby is ideal if you want to allow for that "exponential growth" factor common to Infection games. My rule of thumb with zombie starts in relation to lobby size is keep it below fourty percent and keep it at or above two Zombies. This allows for the zombie population to be kept in check, and slowly increase over time. Due to the two-plus zombies at spawn, team tactics can be implemented from the start. First off, don't ever put Rockets on an Infection map. I have never seen them increase the quality of an Infection map in any way. Rockets completely remove the team-covering aspect of a good Infection game. They do nothing but give humans easy kills and frustrate the zombies. In terms of how important something should be to an Infection forger, Minimizing Zombie Frustration > Adding Incentives to Progress. As for Snipers, try to remember that one shot = one kill. Keep the spare clips in check (but don't nueter the gun by taking out spare clips altogether) and try to limit the number placed on the map to just one, preferably in a location accessed early on in the round due to them being a skill-gap raiser for the humans. Shotguns are weapons that can infuriate the zombies if not added correctly. Earlier on, they should have no spare clips. As the game progresses and more humans are turned into zombies, you could add shotguns with one or two spare clips. A tip: The only thing more annoying than a human with too much shotgun ammo is a team of humans with any amount of shotgun ammo. For that reason, you should limit yourself on both the amount of shotguns placed as well as the ammo in each individual shotgun. As for healthpacks, you can't determine the ideal amount based solely on game length. Ideally, you would want the health packs to be placed in areas proceeding the crescendo events on your map, so that the survivors can be ready for the next stage. I'm going to referance The Sewers - If survivors take so many hits on their way from Point A to Point B, they lose and become a zombie. Once they reach Point B, however, they should be able to patch up their wounds (to a degree) and be ready to travel to Point C in a relatively well state of health. Because it can be difficult to tell if a map is too hard for the humans, I would recomend you load up your semi-finished map with the maximum number of health packs you think the humans might need. If you find it too difficult for the zombies, take away certain health packs. Keep doing this untill you find a nice balance (Theater + Testing = Good Maps). Given that each map is different and some things that work on one map can be flawed on another, I'm not going to give you any definitive answer regarding areas that humans would have to crouch to gain access to. Just remember though, if humans have to crouch to enter a point then the zombies do as well. A zombie that is forced to bum rush humans non-stop will become frustrated soon, but a human subject to never-ending ambushes will quickly grow bored with the cheap gameplay. Try to strike a good balance with how often a zombie can teleport ahead of the humans. Ideally, the number of ambushes present should be just enough to test the humans' ability, yet not enough to give the zombies a massive advantage. Remember that both teams can benefit from adding in various types of situations - a few bum rush sections, ambush spots, and immediate action areas all spread across in moderation should be what you're shooting for. Much like the crouch area concept, this has no definitive answer. Ideally, you won't want to make a map in the limited mindset of "travel - holdout - travel - holdout". Rather, think of your map as a whole product that flows from one area to another. If I asked someone who had just played on The Streets to tell me how many holdout zones and how many transit areas that map had, he likely couldn't give me a correct answer due to how well-blended the seperate parts of the map were. You do not want each part to stand out as it's own seperate gameplay segment. Players should be immersed in one big experiance that doesn't disconnect into several smaller Infection mockeries. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. Edit: I completely dodged your question there. Short-****ing-answer: Don't make them too long. Fourty-five seconds to a minute seems good. If you've somehow managed to stick with me through this entire wall-o'-text. Cheers, HarisSales.
Thanks Haris, I really appreciate the thought that you put into the response. At the moment, I'm a little crushed for time, but I do have a simple question (once I get back, I'll type out a more detailed response). Pertaining to the tank: Look at the picture a few posts above you (my post). The end of that road is a human holdout point. The zombies appear behind the orange shield door, and on top of the left blue strut on the back wall. At the holdout, the strut teleporter opens up about 15 seconds before the holdout ends, and it usually allows for a kill or two since humans press themselves against that back wall. Should the tank spawn in time to utilize that, or should it spawn when the other teleporter is the only option? If it spawns by the strut teleporter, I highly doubt anyone will rely on their guns to take it out since they're all so cramped; it'll just turn into an all-out melee battle. Conversely, if it spawns down the road, the humans have quite a bit of time to take pot shots at it before it reaches them. At the moment it's actually set up to reach them right after the holdout (the logic behind this would be that a tank attack would swiftly remove any relief the humans had from the door opening. Plus the area is relatively close quarters.
On Nightlife, the tank would be able to kill everybody in that holdout within ten seconds. As is, the zombies coming from above with assassinations on usually take out about three people, and to me that is right. The tank would destroy the humans there, maybe 10 seconds or so after the door opens the tank could appear, but not before. That would be a slaughter.
Well I just spent about 20 minutes typing up a response to Haris, only to realize that I had lost the internet connection somewhere along the way, meaning as soon as I his post, I lost it. Biggest changes were the drastic increase in the tanks damage resistance, removal of rockets, and combination between ambush and chase spots. For those interested, I'm hoping to test this map as well as the one following it tonight around 8 PM EST. After that, if there's enough people I'll host a TGIF-like custom games night. It'd be greatly appreciated if those reading this came and gave some reasonable feedback on each map.
A few more things: *Shotguns should NOT be a starting weapon, and should have limited numbers and ammo. *If insta-kill headshots are a must, don't give humans starting weapons like the magnum. *What I would pick for starting weapons: Ar, plasma pistol, 1 frag
I think frags would be a bit overpowered. One, it gives the humans the ability to grenade spam the tank (or others for that matter), and two, they can do damage to a zombie behind a corner meaning they don't need to get close. Head-shots are instant kill, but the head-shot capable weapons are few and far between. Starting weapon is an AR. As for Nightlife, I added in a military guard post to give the zombies cover as they make their way to the humans. Picture below. Spoiler