This is a discussion Rho FS and I had on Skype regarding flow on his map. It ended up having quite a few theoretical points that I though were interesting, and both of us agreed after the fact that we learned much from each-other. I am Cade, for those of you who did not know, if that helps you follow the discussion easier. After you have read this, if you have anything you want to add or comment on feel free to below. This was created to keep the discussion up and allow more participants. Just a warning, its f*cking LOOOOOONNGGGGGGG [5/19/2011 11:21:10 PM] Connor Smith: Did you ever play it btw? [5/19/2011 11:21:17 PM] Cade: facepalm [5/19/2011 11:21:34 PM] Cade: like, twenty times [5/19/2011 11:21:43 PM] Connor Smith: Oshi, did we play? [5/19/2011 11:21:48 PM] Connor Smith: I don't remember that at all [5/19/2011 11:22:37 PM] Cade: we played a ton and i criticized the clusteredness of it that keeps me from being able to logically move to where you will be, because there is no real flow. Its just kinda... go.... [5/19/2011 11:22:55 PM] Cade: basically, i cant predict where you will be at any point in time [5/19/2011 11:23:03 PM] Connor Smith: Oh right. I remember that. I disagree with the clutteredness statement completely [5/19/2011 11:23:20 PM] Connor Smith: And it seems wrong to say that just cause you don't always know where I am, means it has no flow [5/19/2011 11:23:27 PM] Connor Smith: but opinions are opinions [5/19/2011 11:23:58 PM] Cade: No no, flow suggest an ordered movement around the map. [5/19/2011 11:24:15 PM] Connor Smith: There is a pretty constant movement [5/19/2011 11:24:32 PM] Connor Smith: With motivations [5/19/2011 11:25:13 PM] Cade: For instance, your other map directed you in a tribune fashion, spining around in three loops. It was easy to figure out where you would run into someone next, because those offered the best consistent reward. This creates a map that allows for setups, headoffs, and rewards those who break the flow with the element of surprise. [5/19/2011 11:26:47 PM] Connor Smith: 1v1s shouldn't be about always knowing where your opponent is based on obvious movement [5/19/2011 11:27:17 PM] Connor Smith: Jia is more slowly paced in that it's not easy to predict where your opponent is exactly, but where they could be coming from [5/19/2011 11:27:27 PM] Connor Smith: It's got more flow then compass [5/19/2011 11:27:49 PM] Cade: On the other hand, Jia has no patterns. The flow literally is non-existent; it is a constant maelstrom instead of a river. There is no way to predict where the other person will be, where they will go, or when they will be in a certain area. It means constant surprise on both sides and a general discomfort with the feeling, because its incredibly difficult to get positioned in a situation that you recognize as having an advantage. More =/= better [5/19/2011 11:28:16 PM] Connor Smith: You know what I meant [5/19/2011 11:28:23 PM] Cade: You want something with a logical pattern. Sequence, for example, is a giant 1 way street with constant overlap. [5/19/2011 11:28:42 PM] Cade: which makes it feel like no flow, even though it has spectacular flow [5/19/2011 11:28:54 PM] Cade: your map simply moves well [5/19/2011 11:29:00 PM] Cade: which is unrelated to flow! [5/19/2011 11:29:02 PM] Cade: [5/19/2011 11:29:18 PM] Connor Smith: But 1v1s should be about knowing where your opponent is at all times [5/19/2011 11:29:24 PM] Connor Smith: that takes out most of the intelligence [5/19/2011 11:29:28 PM] Cade: Its not [5/19/2011 11:29:47 PM] Cade: Its about knowing where they SHOULD be, and where they will actually be, and learning their play style. [5/19/2011 11:29:57 PM] Cade: Its far more about intelligence than anything else. [5/19/2011 11:30:10 PM] Cade: Because some people break flow more than others. [5/19/2011 11:30:14 PM] Connor Smith: And with Jia, you should know that they should be at the power positions [5/19/2011 11:30:18 PM] Connor Smith: such as height/weapons [5/19/2011 11:30:28 PM] Connor Smith: or running a common route to them [5/19/2011 11:30:36 PM] Cade: The entire map is power positions though, there is no transition except for the health-pack [5/19/2011 11:30:50 PM] Connor Smith: That's entirely not true though [5/19/2011 11:30:57 PM] Connor Smith: Each area has it's pitfalls [5/19/2011 11:31:09 PM] Connor Smith: The best position honestly is above sniper [5/19/2011 11:31:28 PM] Cade: each area can be assaulted by other areas, because they have weaknesses, which means good design not flow. [5/19/2011 11:31:42 PM] Cade: good flow is the application of good movement [5/19/2011 11:31:50 PM] Connor Smith: And it has good movement... [5/19/2011 11:31:56 PM] Cade: it has good movement, it just isnt applied [5/19/2011 11:32:19 PM] Connor Smith: You seem like you're contradicting yourself [5/19/2011 11:32:21 PM] Connor Smith: [5/19/2011 11:32:42 PM] Cade: Movement is not staying in one area, correct? [5/19/2011 11:32:50 PM] Connor Smith: Yes [5/19/2011 11:33:00 PM] Cade: Its making sure that you constantly have to move to a more powerful area, because everything has a disadvantage. [5/19/2011 11:33:13 PM] Connor Smith: Yes [5/19/2011 11:33:23 PM] Cade: Flow, on the other hand, is the method in which players are directed between the different power areas. Not the need to. [5/19/2011 11:34:00 PM] Cade: And the fact that every power area has a weakness from nearly every adjecent room means that every option is viable. [5/19/2011 11:34:26 PM] Connor Smith: But to have power positions w/o weakness would be overpowered [5/19/2011 11:34:54 PM] Cade: Each power position needs to have either one or two ways to assault it directly, and at least two ways that it has power over [5/19/2011 11:35:03 PM] Cade: that way you come in one way, and go out another [5/19/2011 11:35:13 PM] Cade: and keep moving in a logical fashion for the most part [5/19/2011 11:35:24 PM] Connor Smith: Ok, lets use jia as an example for those criteria [5/19/2011 11:35:32 PM] Connor Smith: Power position 1, Top custom [5/19/2011 11:35:46 PM] Connor Smith: You have height, and custom, but when you have height, you have an open back [5/19/2011 11:35:58 PM] Connor Smith: 3 ways to escape [5/19/2011 11:36:16 PM] Connor Smith: 2 routes to 2 different power ups [5/19/2011 11:36:18 PM] Cade: Nuetral to below, weak to top mid, weak to tele. [5/19/2011 11:36:35 PM] Connor Smith: Below meaning bottom lift? [5/19/2011 11:36:44 PM] Cade: below meaning that massive grassy area [5/19/2011 11:37:02 PM] Connor Smith: Ok, so that is generally neutral, you have 2 power oppurtunites (health and GL) [5/19/2011 11:37:19 PM] Cade: Mhm [5/19/2011 11:37:19 PM] Connor Smith: top mid, has hologram, but a distance to run for more safety [5/19/2011 11:37:28 PM] Connor Smith: bottom has more options to escape [5/19/2011 11:37:35 PM] Connor Smith: / losing your opponent [5/19/2011 11:38:08 PM] Cade: top mid is weak to top sniper, strong to powerup, and nuetral to below [5/19/2011 11:38:11 PM] Cade: thats a good setup [5/19/2011 11:38:16 PM] Connor Smith: Each room has enough options to give the player options in each scenario [5/19/2011 11:38:26 PM] Connor Smith: hence, not forcing them to move anywhere [5/19/2011 11:38:27 PM] Connor Smith: / flow [5/19/2011 11:38:38 PM] Cade: its not in terms of a skirmish, its in terms of what comes in between. [5/19/2011 11:39:04 PM] Cade: You want them to follow a logical pattern that has them colliding between fights, directing them on spawn to the nearest point of interest [5/19/2011 11:39:06 PM] Connor Smith: There is no driving force for the time in between battles. No reason for them to have to leave [5/19/2011 11:39:15 PM] Cade: exactly [5/19/2011 11:39:16 PM] Connor Smith: if they don't want to [5/19/2011 11:39:24 PM] Connor Smith: to reason for them to HAVE to leave [5/19/2011 11:39:28 PM] Cade: you need to make them have to leave after a battle [5/19/2011 11:39:29 PM] Connor Smith: no forcing like you said [5/19/2011 11:39:32 PM] Cade: it cant just be powerups [5/19/2011 11:39:41 PM] Cade: if they stay in one area its stagnant [5/19/2011 11:39:48 PM] Cade: which isnt what your map had actually lol [5/19/2011 11:39:51 PM] Cade: it had the opposite problem [5/19/2011 11:40:02 PM] Cade: there was too move randomly moving around, void of order [5/19/2011 11:40:12 PM] Connor Smith: That comes down to the players the majority of the time [5/19/2011 11:40:33 PM] Connor Smith: If you have more conservative players (which I played games with), there is a lot less movement [5/19/2011 11:40:40 PM] Cade: Uh [5/19/2011 11:40:41 PM] Cade: me? [5/19/2011 11:40:43 PM] Cade: lol [5/19/2011 11:40:45 PM] Connor Smith: No [5/19/2011 11:40:50 PM] Cade: Really? [5/19/2011 11:40:56 PM] Connor Smith: You really weren't one of the more conservative players [5/19/2011 11:41:05 PM] Connor Smith: And we played mostly 2v2s [5/19/2011 11:41:10 PM] Cade: Either way, thats not quite what I was talking about. [5/19/2011 11:41:20 PM] Cade: Its not the amount of movement, because you have that perfect [5/19/2011 11:41:28 PM] Cade: its the way that the players move throughout the map [5/19/2011 11:41:30 PM] Cade: it is illogical [5/19/2011 11:41:35 PM] Cade: it is chaos [5/19/2011 11:41:40 PM] Cade: void of order [5/19/2011 11:41:42 PM] Connor Smith: I have pretty logical routes [5/19/2011 11:41:57 PM] Connor Smith: and ways to change them if I need to [5/19/2011 11:42:18 PM] Cade: True, but too many options have equal weighting. There is no set of flow for the map. [5/19/2011 11:42:19 PM] Cade: It just moves. [5/19/2011 11:43:01 PM] Connor Smith: So you're saying that to improve flow, I should make some options obvioiusly bad [5/19/2011 11:43:11 PM] Connor Smith: forcing movement into certain areas? [5/19/2011 11:43:13 PM] Cade: Nonono [5/19/2011 11:43:34 PM] Cade: I dont even know what would need to be done off the top of my head. [5/19/2011 11:43:45 PM] Cade: Im much better at identifying issues than fixing them [5/19/2011 11:43:54 PM] Cade: and its not about areas, its directions [5/19/2011 11:44:03 PM] Cade: you want a path that loops over itself several times [5/19/2011 11:44:09 PM] Cade: that players tend to follow [5/19/2011 11:44:13 PM] Cade: creating a system [5/19/2011 11:44:13 PM] Connor Smith: But why? [5/19/2011 11:44:16 PM] Connor Smith: Why is that necessary? [5/19/2011 11:44:35 PM] Connor Smith: If the map plays well, and is balanced, I don't see why [5/19/2011 11:45:10 PM] Cade: because it allows for the weaker players to have a boost, showing them where to go while offering the more intelligent players a reward for NOT going where they should, and offering setups that help control the actual game. [5/19/2011 11:45:38 PM] Cade: It allows for a far greater degree of intelligence, because it gives you an equation where the only variable is the other player instead of the map [5/19/2011 11:46:00 PM] Cade: and it is actually possible for an experienced veteran to predict the play of an opponent they know well [5/19/2011 11:46:29 PM] Cade: creating a game that is stimulating and feels natural at the bottom, yet incredibly complex and thoughtful at the top [5/19/2011 11:47:30 PM] Connor Smith: That will happen on any map given time though. If I played it enough, I would learn to predict the general routes pepole follow, even if they aren't as blatantly obvious as you'd like them to be. There are only a few ways to actaully move through the map, and even playing the amount I have, you can begin to see them. [5/19/2011 11:47:52 PM] Connor Smith: It might not be as simple at three circles [5/19/2011 11:47:57 PM] Connor Smith: (compass) [5/19/2011 11:48:18 PM] Connor Smith: It's almost like gaurdian 1v1 [5/19/2011 11:48:22 PM] Connor Smith: in that respect [5/19/2011 11:50:46 PM] Cade: Guardian has a flow that rolls back over itself about 12 times, with delays that hold you up in power rooms, some times when you fall back, and a choice between one of three or four different patterns. It sounds like a lot, but its really simply when you understand. For example, 90% of people in blue look into gold, go back and look at sniper, then go back and run into gold. Then they have a set of choices, the best two being camp or run down through bottom blue to lift to sniper. [5/19/2011 11:51:02 PM] Cade: It has a logical set of occurances that can be predicted to a degree of accuracy [5/19/2011 11:51:13 PM] Cade: and promotes several different logical paths [5/19/2011 11:51:15 PM] Cade: ala, flow [5/19/2011 11:51:27 PM] Connor Smith: Exactly, the flow is not obvious at first, but when you play it enough, it is almost easy to narrow down where the enemy should be [5/19/2011 11:52:03 PM] Connor Smith: Granted, mine is not as obvious as gaurdians [5/19/2011 11:52:09 PM] Connor Smith: Or as motivated for that matter [5/19/2011 11:52:12 PM] Connor Smith: and to a degree [5/19/2011 11:52:13 PM] Connor Smith: you are right [5/19/2011 11:52:17 PM] Cade: Sniper room. [5/19/2011 11:52:23 PM] Connor Smith: but it's there, and with time, and playing, you could get it down [5/19/2011 11:52:54 PM] Cade: Best option? Well you could go look at the teleporter, or you could go look at the sniper, or you could sit and wait, or you could go get the GL, or you could go look at powerup.... [5/19/2011 11:53:02 PM] Cade: all are equally viable options [5/19/2011 11:53:03 PM] Connor Smith: Also, a lot of what made prediction on gaurdian, was the LOS [5/19/2011 11:53:43 PM] Cade: Your map isnt like guardian [5/19/2011 11:53:46 PM] Connor Smith: I know that [5/19/2011 11:53:57 PM] Cade: Also [5/19/2011 11:53:57 PM] Cade: http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/epic-fail-photos-unplugged-fail.jpg [5/19/2011 11:54:23 PM] Connor Smith: lol. <3 for relavency [5/19/2011 11:54:31 PM] Connor Smith: I'll give you a companion cube for that [5/19/2011 11:54:34 PM] Connor Smith: ♥ [5/19/2011 11:54:44 PM] Cade: portal 2 reference fail [5/19/2011 11:54:49 PM] Connor Smith: **** OFF [5/19/2011 11:54:52 PM] Connor Smith: Portal reference fai [5/19/2011 11:54:54 PM] Connor Smith: l [5/19/2011 11:55:00 PM] Connor Smith: portal 2 he says! [5/19/2011 11:55:04 PM] Connor Smith: Jesus [5/19/2011 11:56:13 PM] Cade: Anyway, I spend all of my time attempting to discover the flow on maps because its my biggest advantage. [5/19/2011 11:56:33 PM] Cade: I always position myself in the best place to support my team, whether its myself or all seven other guys [5/19/2011 11:56:39 PM] Connor Smith: I may have lost a bit of respect for that whole portal 2 thing... [5/19/2011 11:56:46 PM] Cade: gtfo [5/19/2011 11:56:48 PM] Connor Smith: [5/19/2011 11:56:55 PM] Cade: you know what i meant [5/19/2011 11:57:07 PM] Connor Smith: You have dishonored your family [5/19/2011 11:57:13 PM] Connor Smith: lol [5/19/2011 11:57:18 PM] Cade: ANYWAY [5/19/2011 11:57:33 PM] Connor Smith: I hear you [5/19/2011 11:58:07 PM] Cade: There is no way to predict the most prominent position for the other payer to be located, or where they will probably go when you see them, because there is no logical flow. [5/19/2011 11:58:14 PM] Cade: Its simply a good map
We just had a massive shoutbox chat about using the term "Flow." Hell, half of that conversation was trying to get Rho to understand your idea of flow, since flow isn't clearly defined. It's a generic term that people use without actual knowledge of what it entails. However, I really like how you defined it Cade.
I'm almost surprised anyone read it all the way through. And I agree that he was never very definite in how he defined it (initially). Regardless, I think it was a good discussion. The end was intense. Hope someone here finds this useful. Thanks for this Cade. (I'm Connor by the way, for those who didn't know and/or care at all)
A discussion on flow with no mention of me? Especially a discussion being held by you two of all people. I am disappoint.
This was definitely a good read, and insightful. This is something I've thought about a lot without ever pinning it down quite as clearly as Cade did. In particular just this morning I was thinking about the flow of the CE map Damnation - what I liked about it and what I didn't - and how I could translate that into a new and different map now. Good thread. Thanks.
I've got the flow, check it out. Lay the wall, spin it, rotate it, thirty degrees Line the corners up right cause I got to keep it clean Gray won't do, we ain't playin plain-station Gotta mix it up- I'm talkin player orientation
Well, I was gonna reference Penance but then I realized he might not get it. Then I planned to reference Outpost, but I hadn't played it enough. Then I planned to reference Attainment, but I realized that it was terrible! Regardless, I spent that entire time trying to define flow. I still don't even know if half of the people who read it will understand it well enough to see what I was trying to say about his map
I know you were relating to examples, but even when you were speaking plainly, i still find everything you say entirely subjective. Basically, you shared some good pointers in map design, explaining how a strong understanding of dynamic events (like spawns, firefights) can help you use the odds (after all they are dynamic, you do not control them) in your favour to produce a reliably better functioning map. But then you called it flow.
Key words there. While you can attempt to encourage certain actions, you don't have control over the ever-ambiguous "flow".
Agreed. I'm not a fan of the term...I think as map designers try to put labels to make map design more technical and complex, we're going farther and farther away from a good design. The more these technical terms pile up, the more you're having trouble discerning them from each other...at what point does "flow" change to "player manipulation"? I think the ideal map design theory is common sense...that what feels right and simple will be a good map, and there will be inherent complexity in anything that is purposefully simple.
Coming from the master of Floh (cwutidi...nevermind). I think it's just ways to try and describe good maps.
That's the problem with jargon. It's a term, yes, but it's taken incredibly seriously, and is the basis of many a design. I would say maps with "good flow" these days are actually not good. Walk around and ask yourself "in a game, why am I going this way? What do I expect to achieve? What I'm moving towards?" With a kind of sterile "flow", I find myself wandering around randomly a hell of a lot more in Reach than I did in Halo 3 maps with more sense of what areas need to be controlled. So, is that "good flow"? That every area feels like they run into each other without a sense of purpose? In that case, Guardian (which I think is one of the greatest Halo maps ever made) is a prime example of "BAD flow". I'd say what makes the map make sense and simple is what makes it great, and to be more or less randomly wandering around without choke points or areas that both teams feel attracted to, is a downfall of map design these days.
All this talk of various options all having equal incentives and no way to predict which of them your opponent will choose just made me think of this Sirlin's article on creating a strategically interesting version of Rock Paper Scissors. It's relevant to map design for sure, but I think flow is the wrong term for it. As far as I'm concerned, flow is simply the sensation of being in constant forward motion while playing a map. Movement along the primary routes should be fast and smooth, and then alternate routes can mess around with trick jumps and teleporters and whatever. The various incentives around the map have something to do with flow because if you ever run out of places to go you stop flowing, but overall I think the more relevant factor to the term is how fluidly you move. We need our own wiki project similar to that unreal one linked above so that we can get some standardization of terms around the forge community. I started one a little while ago and got a little bit of help from a few people, but overall it has been stagnating as I am the only one still editing it. Here's the link to that if anybody feels like helping. There's a rather unpolished article on flow in there for what its worth.
The point is that this is a bad idea. I have been trying to show that the term, along with many others thrown around to describe maps on this website, have been made despite offering no benefit at all. All of this understanding of map design, player movement, game mechanics etc is already explainable. It doesn't need a new word to tie it off, because it is corrosive to the creative thinking on this website. Just look at the history of the way Forge is explained, from Halo Reach back to Halo 3. What with aesthetics apparently referring to a whole bunch of preposterous things. And what's the point? It stagnates peoples understanding when it comes to making maps, either through over-complication, or by reducing map comments to the same tired ****. And why introduce new words to the Forge vocabulary when they can't be translated to other media. They won't be accepted, they aren't even needed. So all you do is reduce peoples communication skills when it comes to creative thinking. Forge isn't so complicated, half of what your saying is an aspect of flow is part of the natural feeling of designing something. I'm not against use of the word flow. Gases and Liquids flow. Much of the science behind Liquids and Gases revolves around probabilities. That's because the actual number of variables (molecules) are too great to actually count. It's too complex to study absolutely, so instead it revolves around rules (The laws of thermodynamics), and the answer you reach at the end is a ratio or a percentage chance. Flow therefore implies some form of nature to function. It's outside of our understanding, but yet it works to our benefit. This is what flow is. If areas on a map are used in relatively equal proportion, and you find no route is too long or too short, and no area is left untouched or piled with bodies, then yes, your map certainly does flow well. Just as saying, the average level of traffic is acceptable, and commute times aren't too long or short.