Why is everyone from this community so concerned with aesthetics?

Ummm...what? I wouldn't say this community is so concerned with aesthetics. In fact we've had many threads debating the concept of Aesthetics vs Gameplay. The overall consensus is a combination of the two. You can have a map that plays great AND looks great. The two are not mutually exclusive.

It is also a truth that maps that look great and have something instantly recognizable about them tend to draw more attention. The same case can be made in real life marketing. Why buy boring looking product x when product Y looks so cool. They could both do the same function equally well but if product x is not marketed as well as product Y, product Y will sell more. You get what I'm getting at here?

So, this community fully understands the issue and of course we try to do what is best for the map but at the end of the day its about getting downloads. That is what this community is about, displaying our forge creations for the public to get recognition. The MLG community is more about playing games than presenting a product so that might be where your outlook is coming from.

 

well in order to first even get a map noticed it must appeal to a persons eye so just a bunch of blocks on the ground may play well but doesn.t look appealing. but some of what you are saying is true but there can be maps with both, many btb maps especially some used on ilovebtb.com are such examples, also many of the mlg maps look nice and play well

 

People can look at a screenshot and easily tell whether or not it looks great, gameplay, on the other hand, is harder to judge until you play on it. Maps get overlooked because people can't say holy **** that's gonna play well. So a map with both is always better.

 

If you don't like this community, leave. A vast majority of the community here doesn't understand map design that well, therefore a lot of the maps don't play well (Sorry community). Go through the featured maps archive or well known forgers fileshares, you'll find maps that play great and have great aesthetics. Note: I'm not saying you have to be well known to make well playing maps, I'm just saying that there is a reason there are specific people of which are well known.

 

^ a little meaner way of saying what I said

 

Who's gonna play on a gray box?

 

Well, on top of what everyone above me said (which I agree with) a map may play flawlessly, but if it isn't fun and eye catching, the replay value of the map diminishes, and the map becomes a forgotten file amidst the hundreds of maps a player has downloaded. Fun has correlates to aesthetics, at least to a degree, and as long as the aesthetics do not interfere with gameplay, they can only help the map gain recognition. In a community where many new maps are posted daily, forgers need to make their maps stand out. The first thing players look at is the pretty pictures in each thread, and if it looks cool, the viewer DLs it (more often than not). Gameplay as well as aesthetics will decide whether or not the map will be kept, but usually it's the aesthetics that captures the attention first. Hence, aesthetics being important.

A bit lengthy and repetitive, but that's my two cents.

 

Why is EVERYONE so concerned with getting their maps into matchmaking. See, EVERYONE is a big word.
I dont give a crap if my map doesnt get in matchmaking. I dont care about matchmaking. I care about making amazing maps that people can enjoy in customs for fun rather than for earning credits.

 

From what I've heard, ForgeHub's supposed focus on aesthetics is merely a stereotype, and most good Forgers actually do look at gameplay as well. There are reference threads in this very forum about avoiding frame rate lag and discoing.

That said, aesthetics do play a key role in a map's appeal -- yet shouldn't be emphasized so much as to interfere with gameplay. I think that most people at ForgeHub -- and most people at Forge communities in general -- understand that, with the exception of "casual" Forgers (who don't care), new Forgers (who soon will learn), and some aesthetic Forgers (for whom gameplay is not an issue).

Consider this -- people don't like to play on maps that have bad gameplay. Aesthetics so intense as to detract from gameplay cause a map to have bad gameplay. Ergo, fewer people will play on such maps, and that will encourage Forgers to maybe go a little less heavy on the aesthetics in their future maps.

In short -- your concerns are noted and understandable, but really, there's nothing to worry about.

Half-hearted expression of disapproval over your apparent lack of civility.

 

It's like, people come for the aesthetics, but they stay for the gameplay. In any case, I have never seen a case where somebody on this website values gameplay over aesthetics. Actually, I see the phrase 'gameplay > aesthetics' everywhere. But at the end of the day, aesthetics get you the downloads.

 

I think philosophically, this community is split about down the middle on aesthetics and gameplay. Many people here are gameplay-before-all-else types; many others (and this is probably the majority of members) look for balance between the two, and there's certainly no shortage of discussion on how to make a good-looking map while avoiding framerate issues and making it playable and fun.

But you know how they say you don't sell the steak, you sell the sizzle? Applies here x1000. When people are scrolling through multiple custom content pages full of new maps by dozens of different forgers, they aren't going to download everything and test run them all for gameplay purposes. They're looking for something that catches their eye. So the initial glut of downloads and comments everyone is seeking will tend to come to maps that put aesthetics first, and have a few snazzy screenshots playing that up. That doesn't mean these maps are that great or have any kind of shelf life, but for a burst of popularity, that's the sure method. If you make a gameplay-first or gameplay-only map, you better have lots of friends and testers who will comment on your thread and recommend your map to others. Otherwise you can expect it to die with its boring gray screenshots. It's just the way it goes. And it's not just here - it's basically everywhere except for possibly MLG, and that's only because their community is SO focused on gameplay that they've trained themselves to look for it, and to actually avoid maps with crazy aesthetics. That's not so for the vast majority of players though, and that vast majority includes many of the people browsing and commenting here.

Me personally, I need both. A map must be playable, fun, and complex first and foremost. But if it doesn't have at least some memorable aesthetics, smooth forging, and a little uniqueness to it, it won't hold my interest. Those things also help a lot for establishing player orientation at spawn so they feed into gameplay in a very direct sense.

 

This is one of the many threads debating this, and it's going to end the same way as the last ones have.
Aesthetics aren't just something to add in for petty people. I enjoy gameplay, but aesthetics are important. I'm not going to play on a map with everything visibly overlapping with flashing textures, or a map with just walls and a floor. Something has to set them apart aesthetically and gameplay wise.

If you had a map that was just 100% aesthetics, it would be terrible. If you had a map that was 100% gameplay, it would be terrible. You have to go 50/50. It isn't just forgehub who cares about aesthetics. Practically any community that's based off user created content cares about aesthetics, because you don't create something and not implement aesthetics. It's not just about posting your work, it's presenting it.

Bungie didn't release Halo without aesthetics, did they?

 

Aesthetics give you downloads.

Gameplay gives you longevity.

Most forgers want to get their name out there by gaining a lot of downloads, so they make a pretty looking map that everyone downloads but no one plays. It does not matter if they remove the map from their HD right after they download it, you still have a download.

This is a lot of the reason why video games in general are regressing. Developers care less now about making a good game and more about making money, so they add gimmicky features that sound great on paper, but are terrible in practice. Once you buy the game from them, they have your $60. Whether you play for 5 minutes or 5 years makes no difference to them (obviously subscription based games don't count).




And I would like to believe that I am one of the few forgers that focuses solely on gameplay over aesthetics. While I do try to practice good object coordination, I will never sacrifice gameplay to add a pointless aesthetic piece. It took me a pretty long time to get any recognition as a forger because of this, but I think it has finally reached the point where people will download my maps because they expect them to play well, not look amazing.

 

^ And the true master forger can have both. Don't forget that Pulse

 

That's what everyone should care about^^
Usually, when I start bulding a map I make a plan in my head and I think about where differences in heigt should be, where windows and so on to shoot through.
The aesthetic part comes just next to it but it's even there when I don't concentrate on.
I usually use the Decoratives as Map geometry to block off this sight to theeere and what so ever.

I guess this whole subject is just a personal opinion from everyone.
You can't get someone to concentrate on gameplay when he's an aesthetic-freak
And if he wants it that way, all right^^
Still, so many want theire maps in matchmaking (of course I would also love to have it too xD) but they care too much about the look and never ever will a map without a solid gameplay get there

 

I've tried to tell every single person I know at MLG this, and I will continue with you >: D

Aesthetics is NOT ABOUT ADDING GIMMICKY TRICKS. If you are wasting objects, you are not doing aesthetics right at ALL. Aesthetics is about using pieces in creative ways that (A) look nice and (B) serve a function. I would rather see a unique wall that I have never seen before in my life, or using a walkway-cover to finish up a wall because one of the ceilings is too high than build a giant pillar that uses all 50 walls.

The difference is one is incorporated into your map, and takes it from being a place into being an actual map, while the other is messy and gross. Because to do a perfect map right you need aesthetic conformity (where your map holds the same theme throughout,) creative use of pieces (again, not wasting just using in unprecedented manners,) initial gameplay (how the map goes for people who have never played it before; the lowest level of competition which is similar to enjoyability) and design (basically every highly-competitive aspect of the flow, team setups, weapon placement, etc on a higher, long lasting level.)

A map that plays good but looks terrible is probably a great map, but imagine if that SAME map was exactly the same FPS, weapons, lag, etc, but looked beautiful. Then it would be, hands down, a better map. If you deny that then you are denying that a kind, beautiful genius is better than a kind, ugly-ass genius. Humanity places emphasis on looks because we are artistic, you gotta live with it.

 

QFT

I think the trick is just to USE the "Aesthetics" as map geometry itself.
When I forge a map, I build the map and Aesthetic at the same time, and I think that's the best way to keep you style and everything.
It's just wrong to finish your "map geometry" paths and so on and THEN add extra objects for Aesthetic purposes....

 

I never said that I avoid including aesthetics or that aesthetics are bad, and in fact, I think I said the opposite. I said that I practice object coordination, which is essentially using objects that work well together. I know how to make a map look good without using extra objects, and that is what I want to preach. Often times, people replace parts of their map with pieces that look better but do not serve gameplay as well. Even though these pieces are not entirely useless, as they do have a purpose, the main purpose for their use is aesthetics instead of gameplay.

I never said that I neglect aesthetics overall, just that they are not the main focus of mine while designing. Too many people get caught in the trap of designing their maps to look good and then worrying about gameplay later, when instead you should be designing the map to play well and then worry about how it looks later. I am not against making a map look good, I am simply against people adding unnecessary aesthetic gimmicks into their maps in order to garner downloads. I can find features on this site, as well as the MLG site, that do this. But when these extra aesthetics are added to a map and the map is being sold as "competitive", that is where I have a problem.

 

I wish I could respond to the rest of what you said, but you covered it so well there is no way without reiterating what has been said previously. Furthermore, that last line resonated;

It is true that far too many people label their maps as competitive when something else would work much better. The term is too subjective. I would much rather casual, fun, or some other word be used for the 90% of maps that you are talking about because they are not based solely on the track of getting to be the best in play, but the best they can be in terms of balance between brains and brawn. However switching one piece out with another that looks better can hardly be defined as 'gimmicky,' that sounds much more like improving the overall map (unless there are other consequences obviously) because if you do it right all you do is increase the present-ability. And honestly I would rather play a map with a rainbow tunnel that keeps me interested 12 times in a row than a totally grey tunnel that uses the same number of pieces. Enjoyment is another part of making a good map. You shouldn't be gritting your teeth when playing, even at the most competitive of levels, because it is in every sense of the word a game. It was made to be enjoyed and fail to see why ignoring that part of it makes your map any better than the next.