Halo 3's forging was far more efficient and allowed more to be done with its smaller budgets than Halo Reach's forging allows with its larger budgets. I'm encountering proof of this remaking two maps I made in Halo 3 on Sandbox. I thought in Reach in Forge World I could not only do remakes of these maps, but significantly improve them, and make one much larger because it was smaller than I wanted due to the limits of Sandbox's forging budget and number of objects. For example: In Halo 3, my maze map Temple of Crete was roughly 15 by 20 in terms of pathways you can walk on. (There would be 20 paths side by side going from the long end to the other end, and 15 if you were counting along the narrower side if you didn't get what I meant). In Reach, I'm doing another maze that I think of as a remake of it that will be 21 by 28. I figured it would be easy to make a maze map in Forge World only a little larger than my Halo 3 maze, but no, its not at all! Reach's forge may be incapable of making a maze 21 by 28 pathways big, where Halo 3 probably is capable of doing that!!!!! I made my maze map in the sky bubble in Sandbox, so I used up lots of stuff for floor, but I really think if I made a maze in the middle area or in the crypt, Sandbox's forge could produce a maze that is 21 pathways wide by 28 pathways long. Forge World is going to cut it extremely close if I manage to pull it off. I feel the reason for Reach's forging being inefficient is the number of objects we're allowed to use. We can have tons of wierd, rarely used objects such as spiral ascension stairs, all the inclines we can dream of as if a regular flat wall slanted wouldn't work as an incline anyway, wierd decorative but actually structural objects, and so on, but we can only have about 50 walls, 50 walkways/ pathways which could substitute for walls in desperate situations like I'm in with my maze, and 100 blocks that are not even scaled to each other in any way to help them fit together efficiently. In Halo 3, we had 40 walls, 20 half walls, 20 wall corners, 20 walls with slit windows, 20 T walls, 40 double walls, 40 large blocks, 40 double blocks, 30 tall blocks, 30 huge blocks, 20 tube pieces, and 20 tube corners, all of which I think work excently for wall pieces. Thats 340 objects to use for making walls, floors, and ceilings, versus 150 or 200 in Reach. The only major improvement in the efficiency of objects in Reach is the coliseum wall piece because it covers so much space. Even the grouping of objects is not really an improvement because objects that are not alike should be grouped together, not objects that are alike. If I'm using tons of double walls for example, I'm probably going to need the single walls too. So why take away the single wall when it would be more efficient to take away say an incline or a spiral staircase because I'm less likely to use those than a single wall? Bungie grouped the objects the wrong way in Reach's forge so its actually not an improvement really, maybe a slight one at best. I will give them credit for the coliseum walls although they should be bigger really, or there should be another wall object bigger than that. Its just frustrating to realize Forge World has a tough time reproducing two maps Sandbox produced for me without serious object limitation issues when Sandbox was Halo 3 and Forge World is Halo Reach.
everything is a wall. even with all of the things you mention, simply having the phasing option cancels out your argument because it made forging exponentially more efficient.
I agree heartily. Physics changes in forge 2 are so superior to what we had before that Bungie could have kicked me in the junk when the game came out and I'd still be thanking them.
same. before they had announced anything about forgeworld, i was expecting the worst and just crossing my fingers for a snap-to rotation function, lol.
Your arguement is completely false. Incline Xl's can be used as a flat surface by turning the less severely inclined side towards the area where you want it to be flat then angling it by 14 degrees. Brace, large can be very efficiently used as a wall. Building blocks are scaled perfectly too each other. A 5:5 block is equal to 25 1:1 blocks, a 4:4 block is equal to 16 1:1 blocks and a 2:2 block is not only equal to 4 1:1 blocks, it also is the exact same size as a single wall. I'm confused as to what you experienced that caused you to think otherwise, but I can assure you all of the blocks are perfectly scaled too each other. You obviously have not experimented in forge much, because, excluding natural, every object class can be used to create a flat surface. Next time you have a problem with forge, actually experiment with different pieces before going on a rant like this.
Guys, he's trying to make a maze with thin objects, and in that situation he's sort of right. There were more thin objects in Sandbox. Reach is still better though, you just have to design for the objects we have instead of trying to port Sandbox designs directly.
Forge 2 (if that's what we're going to call it...) is much more efficiant in terms of use. There is absolutely no arguement there whatsoever. I only feel that Bungie wasn't exactly thinking straight when they decided what pieces to add to Forgeworld, and how many of them. If you look at just about any piece on Forgeworld, you'll notice they were [almost] all made specifically for Halo CE/Halo 2 remakes. Frame, Larges? They're the same frames from Ascension. Most of the "Buildings"? Came straight from Lockout. It almost seems as though Bungie was thinking of how to make Forge easier for them rather than for us, the customers. Add to this the lack of walls (sometimes I don't actually want half of a damned ramp sticking out of my wall, believe it or not), and you definetaly have a few shortcomings on an otherwise great forge engine.
Best Forge Update, Forge world. Fail Forge space is fail. [br][/br]Edited by merge: add two walls that are perpendicular to each other. fixed. If you cut a square in half by two of the points, you get two triangles. Put em back together, and you get a square again.
Forge 1 more effecient? Yeah right. Spending 30 minutes getting a rotation I wanted wasn't efficient, and using a second controller to make sure my merging was correct also wasn't. It comes down to the pieces sucking, and fitting your map to a part in forgeworld being difficult. For example, a good Valhalla remake is almost impossible because the canyon is too wide and the pieces can't fit together t create valhalla's structures.
You're absolutely right, I stand corrected. It is not Forge 2 that is less efficient than Forge 1, but Forge World's pallete that is less efficient than Sandbox's pallete. Excellent point. As for using inclines and buildings for walls, its nearly impossible. I did manage to pull off using a double room for a wall in one spot, but its impossible 99% of the time. Inclines are the same way because they're only flat on one side or one area, and have stuff jutting off at wierd angles that has to be dealt with. I may use inclines for a roof perhaps though. Stunt ramps are not helpful either because they're thick on one end and not flat. A wall needs to be flat on both sides, especially for what I'm trying to do. And yes, I have been using the XL bridges like mad, but they make hideous walls because of the railings sticking out. Its impossible to hide the railings all the time. There is not potential for 400 wall pieces in Forge 2, if by wall you mean what the definition of wall is, something flat on both sides. There is only the potential for 200 walls in Forge 2, coming from 100 Building Blocks, 50 Bridges and Platforms, and 50 Doors, Windows, and Walls. Buildings have no object that can function as a pure wall. Decorative has no object that can function as a pure wall. Inclines have no object that can function as a pure wall (no incline is flat on both sides). You can't say for example a large brace can be used as a wall, because it can't be used as a wall in every situation. In fact, it more often will not work as a wall than it will work as a wall. So you can't call a large brace a wall, if you only do this with it in order to be able to use it for a wall, under these conditions, because people won't always be able to use a large brace a certain way in certain conditions. And that applies to other objects you're considering walls too. So there are only 200 pure wall objects in Forge World's pallete. Also to other posters, the ability to phase objects in Forge 2 makes Forge 2 faster and easier than Forge 1, but not necessarily more effective than Forge 1. Forge 1 accomplished more with say $3000 of budget than Forge 2 accomplishes with $3000 of budget, because Forge 1's palletes were far more effective and useful for creating maps. The overwhelming majority of objects in Forge World's pallete are rarely even used from what I have seen, or they're only used for asthetic purposes. (Which is fine, we need asthetics too, but we also need to be able to make a map to add asthetic touches to in my opinion). If my ranting bothers anyone, just ignore me lol. I just got annoyed the last time I was working on my maze map when I realized I might not be able to pull it off in Halo Reach, and I could pull it off in Halo 3. I mean thats a big disapointment if it happens, and a massive failure of Forge World for me personally since I want to make a maze map in Reach, not Halo 3 lol. (Especially since Reach's forging is so much easier to use!)
Your definition of a wall is wrong. You are defining a partition wall, which in the case of an interior wall in a maze is correct. However your outer walls, floor(if one story), and ceiling can easily use inclines.
I had somewhere a Microsoft Word document with a gargantuan list of ideas for Halo 3 Maps. I found it shortly ago and looked at them. None of them could be made with Halo: Reach's Forge thanks to the removal of a lot of useful Weapons, Scenery and Vehicles. Well, that's a bit of an exagerration,(Or however you spell it, English ain't my first language)of the 80(or so, i dunno exactly) ideas i could only build one or two in Reach.
The major issue Im seeing here is not that Forge 2.0 is less efficient that 1.0, its the sheer fact that you guys are expecting precise compatibility between the two. Its like bashing Windows 7 because it cant run a piece of software from Windows '95. Hell, Im having a similar issue with forging one of my maps. Its an an old design from Halo 3 which I never finished, and now in Halo Reach Im having trouble with people using jetpacks to fly everywhere. Rather than dredging up and trying to cram in old ideas, use the advanced tools available to you to create new and better designs!
Thats pretty much what I was going to say too. Go back and look at all the Foundry maps, even basic merging took a long time to do, especially in comparison to Reach's phasing. So in terms of "efficiency" I have to say you are totally wrong. But what you're describing isn't really the "efficiency", you're complaining because you can't just "port" your Halo 3 map in to Reach. To me, thats just lazy. Its like building a skyscraper in a perfect location, a location which is not prone to earthquakes and bed rock is very well consolidated. Its solid ground, its not going to give way when you build your skyscraper. You are happy with your construction. Then your asked to build something on ground which is like gravel and sand and situated right next a fault and you build the same skyscraper design and complain when there is a small earthquake and your entire building collapses. You see what I'm saying here? OK, you built a maze in Halo 3, well done. But Halo Reach is not Halo 3. Also, Halo 3 didn't completely disappear when Reach came out. Bungie won't ban you for playing it. You are allowed to Forge on Sandbox if you think your map is better suited for Halo 3.
I'm lazy??? You didn't even read my post, or you would know I'm not just trying to "port" my Halo 3 map to Reach. So who's lazy? That map is done, and made, and I have no intention of creating it in Reach right now. I said I'm making a new, bigger, and better maze that I *think of* as a remake of my Halo 3 maze map. Its not really, but I just think of it as being my Reach version of it. Think Coagulation in Halo 2 then Valhalla in Halo 3. Valhalla was kind of in a sense a remake of Coagulation, since it was a "spiritual successor" as Bungie described it, but it wasn't a pure remake either. Yes, what I'm describing IS efficiency. Forge World's forge pallette, scaled to the same size budget with Sandbox's forge pallette, IS less efficient. Also, to other posters, phasing only makes forging more efficient as far as SPEED is concerned. It does NOT change the end result because although merging was very, very slow in Halo 3, we COULD merge objects in Halo 3 just like we can phase in Reach. So phasing is only more efficient than merging in terms of speed. It makes NO difference in the final map. The most important things that make forge more efficient are things like the budget size, the number of objects, the pallette, and some other kind of random things such as performance (like frame rate lag is a major problem in Forge World for example).
TC, you probably titled the topic a little...off. You should have expected the "phasing makes everything amazing" argument. However, I do agree with you that Halo 3 seemed to have better item direction. Everything could be used more efficiently. Things seem really out of place in Reach, especially texture wise. FYI guys inclines are terrible walls/floors/ceilings. They never fit perfectly together, even at a custom angle, have terrible textures and don't mesh with other items well.
Efficiency is just how much work you put into something compared to what you get from working. In Forge 1.0, we had to slave for months to make good maps. With phasing, that time is cut dramatically. Ergo way more efficient; we work less to get the same quality product. Now, as for Forge 1's palette being better in some cases, yes, that's true. However, I pretty much forgive it for having coliseum walls.
I feel strongly that there are more flat walls in forge 2 than the original. I think you are looking at the huge upgrade with forge 2 and seen that the 'flat wall' section isn't as much of an upgrade, lacking compared to the rest. I'm really surprised by how people can get mad at petty little things like this when there is a plethora of gametype options than bungie could spend an afternoon developing and releasing. There are games used in matchmaking that have special options, I came across a damn 'pot potato' gametype bungie made for god's sake. There is so much potential.