Meh science and religion is the same thing anyway and as Jex said, attaining someone's IQ by testing their knowledge in science isn't exactly reflecting their overall intelligence accurately. All in all, they're both contradicting beliefs. I'm more of an open-minded atheist. I believe I only have one shot at life, so following a strict rule book on how I should spend my life isn't for me. I'd rather do things my way, and if people disagree; that's their problem. I tend to believe more about science because most of it is supported by some evidence to some degree, where as religion is all about ancient tales and word of mouth stories that have been passed down through generations. But even my belief in science, doesn't mean I'm more intelligent... In fact, most people on this site call me an idiot
Hitler was Christian and did NOT kill darker people. There were African, Asian, Muslim and Indian soldiers in his army. He did however kill Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals. Hitler was not a racial supremacist, he was a racial separatist.
I find it funny how Christians call Hitler an Atheist and Atheists call him a Christian. It's like chucking a dud grenade back and forth, it's never going to go off, no one will win. There have been times when Hitler did Christian deeds and there have been other times he did Non-Christian deeds. (That is a bad on my behalf, just because it was Non-Christian doesn't mean it was Atheist). However, Hitler did state in his speeches many times that he were a Christian, but how often do politicians nowadays say, "god bless you"? Many ****'s were religiously open, many acted with force against the atheists. Now in order for Hitler to remain in power wouldn't you think it would be smart to involve God in your speech to gain support? Would it be common to lie in his speeches when 90% of your listeners were Christians? Take a look at this link, it's not biased and shows both sides to the story. The Straight Dope: Was Hitler a Christian? Read this one as well, they're notes from Hitler taken by his personal secretary. His PS was an Antichrist. Was Hitler a Christian? Hitler did kill many Christians as well, ones who would not convert. Have you heard of the Purple Triangle? Basically it were a Badge to identify Bible Students in concentration camps, more specifically Jehovah's Witnesses, Adventists, Baptists and Pacifists. Basically, the biggest question we can ask ourselves is: Was Hitler an "honest to God" Christian, or was he simply using religion as a means of control? Question taken from first link. I apologise to Tex for this thread going so off topic. When you place Science and Religion into a sentence there will always be conflict, yet there should be no reason for it, I think they co-exist. To be on topic here are 12 famous religious scientists. Spoiler 1- Nicholas Copernicus (1473-1543) Copernicus was the Polish astronomer who put forward the first mathematically based system of planets going around the sun. He attended various European universities, and became a Canon in the Catholic church in 1497. His new system was actually first presented in the Vatican gardens in 1533 before Pope Clement VII who approved, and urged Copernicus to publish it around this time. Copernicus was never under any threat of religious persecution - and was urged to publish both by Catholic Bishop Guise, Cardinal Schonberg, and the Protestant Professor George Rheticus. Copernicus referred sometimes to God in his works, and did not see his system as in conflict with the Bible. 2- Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1627) Bacon was a philosopher who is known for establishing the scientific method of inquiry based on experimentation and inductive reasoning. In De Interpretatione Naturae Prooemium, Bacon established his goals as being the discovery of truth, service to his country, and service to the church. Although his work was based upon experimentation and reasoning, he rejected atheism as being the result of insufficient depth of philosophy, stating, "It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man’s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion; for while the mind of man looketh upon second causes scattered, it may sometimes rest in them, and go no further; but when it beholdeth the chain of them confederate, and linked together, it must needs fly to Providence and Deity." (Of Atheism) 3- Johannes Kepler (1571-1630) Kepler was a brilliant mathematician and astronomer. He did early work on light, and established the laws of planetary motion about the sun. He also came close to reaching the Newtonian concept of universal gravity - well before Newton was born! His introduction of the idea of force in astronomy changed it radically in a modern direction. Kepler was an extremely sincere and pious Lutheran, whose works on astronomy contain writings about how space and the heavenly bodies represent the Trinity. Kepler suffered no persecution for his open avowal of the sun-centered system, and, indeed, was allowed as a Protestant to stay in Catholic Graz as a Professor (1595-1600) when other Protestants had been expelled! 4- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) Galileo is often remembered for his conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. His controversial work on the solar system was published in 1633. It had no proofs of a sun-centered system (Galileo's telescope discoveries did not indicate a moving earth) and his one "proof" based upon the tides was invalid. It ignored the correct elliptical orbits of planets published twenty five years earlier by Kepler. Since his work finished by putting the Pope's favorite argument in the mouth of the simpleton in the dialogue, the Pope (an old friend of Galileo's) was very offended. After the "trial" and being forbidden to teach the sun-centered system, Galileo did his most useful theoretical work, which was on dynamics. Galileo expressly said that the Bible cannot err, and saw his system as an alternate interpretation of the biblical texts. 5- Rene Descartes (1596-1650) Descartes was a French mathematician, scientist and philosopher who has been called the father of modern philosophy. His school studies made him dissatisfied with previous philosophy: He had a deep religious faith as a Roman Catholic, which he retained to his dying day, along with a resolute, passionate desire to discover the truth. At the age of 24 he had a dream, and felt the vocational call to seek to bring knowledge together in one system of thought. His system began by asking what could be known if all else were doubted - suggesting the famous "I think therefore I am". Actually, it is often forgotten that the next step for Descartes was to establish the near certainty of the existence of God - for only if God both exists and would not want us to be deceived by our experiences - can we trust our senses and logical thought processes. God is, therefore, central to his whole philosophy. What he really wanted to see was that his philosophy be adopted as standard Roman Catholic teaching. Rene Descartes and Francis Bacon (1561-1626) are generally regarded as the key figures in the development of scientific methodology. Both had systems in which God was important, and both seem more devout than the average for their era. 6- Isaac Newton (1642-1727) In optics, mechanics, and mathematics, Newton was a figure of undisputed genius and innovation. In all his science (including chemistry) he saw mathematics and numbers as central. What is less well known is that he was devoutly religious and saw numbers as involved in understanding God's plan for history from the Bible. He did a considerable work on biblical numerology, and, though aspects of his beliefs were not orthodox, he thought theology was very important. In his system of physics, God is essential to the nature and absoluteness of space. In Principia he stated, "The most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion on an intelligent and powerful Being." 7- Robert Boyle (1791-1867) One of the founders and key early members of the Royal Society, Boyle gave his name to "Boyle's Law" for gases, and also wrote an important work on chemistry. Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "By his will he endowed a series of Boyle lectures, or sermons, which still continue, 'for proving the Christian religion against notorious infidels...' As a devout Protestant, Boyle took a special interest in promoting the Christian religion abroad, giving money to translate and publish the New Testament into Irish and Turkish. In 1690 he developed his theological views in The Christian Virtuoso, which he wrote to show that the study of nature was a central religious duty." Boyle wrote against atheists in his day (the notion that atheism is a modern invention is a myth), and was clearly much more devoutly Christian than the average in his era. 8- Michael Faraday (1791-1867) Michael Faraday was the son of a blacksmith who became one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century. His work on electricity and magnetism not only revolutionized physics, but led to much of our lifestyles today, which depends on them (including computers and telephone lines and, so, web sites). Faraday was a devoutly Christian member of the Sandemanians, which significantly influenced him and strongly affected the way in which he approached and interpreted nature. Originating from Presbyterians, the Sandemanians rejected the idea of state churches, and tried to go back to a New Testament type of Christianity. 9- Gregor Mendel (1822-1884) Mendel was the first to lay the mathematical foundations of genetics, in what came to be called "Mendelianism". He began his research in 1856 (three years before Darwin published his Origin of Species) in the garden of the Monastery in which he was a monk. Mendel was elected Abbot of his Monastery in 1868. His work remained comparatively unknown until the turn of the century, when a new generation of botanists began finding similar results and "rediscovered" him (though their ideas were not identical to his). An interesting point is that the 1860's was notable for formation of the X-Club, which was dedicated to lessening religious influences and propagating an image of "conflict" between science and religion. One sympathizer was Darwin's cousin Francis Galton, whose scientific interest was in genetics (a proponent of eugenics - selective breeding among humans to "improve" the stock). He was writing how the "priestly mind" was not conducive to science while, at around the same time, an Austrian monk was making the breakthrough in genetics. The rediscovery of the work of Mendel came too late to affect Galton's contribution. 10- William Thomson Kelvin (1824-1907) Kelvin was foremost among the small group of British scientists who helped to lay the foundations of modern physics. His work covered many areas of physics, and he was said to have more letters after his name than anyone else in the Commonwealth, since he received numerous honorary degrees from European Universities, which recognized the value of his work. He was a very committed Christian, who was certainly more religious than the average for his era. Interestingly, his fellow physicists George Gabriel Stokes (1819-1903) and James Clerk Maxwell (1831-1879) were also men of deep Christian commitment, in an era when many were nominal, apathetic, or anti-Christian. The Encyclopedia Britannica says "Maxwell is regarded by most modern physicists as the scientist of the 19th century who had the greatest influence on 20th century physics; he is ranked with Sir Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein for the fundamental nature of his contributions." Lord Kelvin was an Old Earth creationist, who estimated the Earth's age to be somewhere between 20 million and 100 million years, with an upper limit at 500 million years based on cooling rates (a low estimate due to his lack of knowledge about radiogenic heating). 11- Max Planck (1858-1947) Planck made many contributions to physics, but is best known for quantum theory, which revolutionized our understanding of the atomic and sub-atomic worlds. In his 1937 lecture "Religion and Naturwissenschaft," Planck expressed the view that God is everywhere present, and held that "the holiness of the unintelligible Godhead is conveyed by the holiness of symbols." Atheists, he thought, attach too much importance to what are merely symbols. Planck was a churchwarden from 1920 until his death, and believed in an almighty, all-knowing, beneficent God (though not necessarily a personal one). Both science and religion wage a "tireless battle against skepticism and dogmatism, against unbelief and superstition" with the goal "toward God!" 12- Albert Einstein (1879-1955) Einstein is probably the best known and most highly revered scientist of the twentieth century, and is associated with major revolutions in our thinking about time, gravity, and the conversion of matter to energy (E=mc2). Although never coming to belief in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Source: Famous Scientists Who Believed in God Answering towards that graph you had put on there Tex, have a look at this link: Religion vs. IQ - Are Religious People Stupid? There are several graphs in that link that show a low IQ doesn't generally involve religious people. More so a lower GDP, thus affecting them to not have a higher education. That being, you can't say IQ is important in this discussion.
Let me just add this to the Hitler discussion: No honest to goodness follower of Jesus Christ (aka a Christian) would do what Hitler did. If Hitler wanted to call himself a Christian that's fine, but anyone who truly follows Jesus would never do what he did and therefore Hitler wasn't a real Christian. Some religions may explicitly allow for such actions against other people but Jesus put it pretty plainly when he said "love your enemies." The "Hitler is a Christian/Atheist" debate is pretty pointless because as one person said Christians will say one thing and Atheists will say another. I personally don't think he was either. And considering how much of a lunatic he was should we really take anything he did and not consider it to be a facade just to get to his position of power?
Point of clarification: An IQ test does NOT test one's knowledge in science or any other particular subject. It is a general perception and understanding test, the only requirement is usually understanding of English or whatever language you're taking the test in. IQ is a measure of a person's ability to comprehend things, how they process information, and the speed of how they process it (depending on the test). What really saddens me are the numbers on that graph. The highest IQ on that chart is about 106. A 100 IQ is an average male, but it's considered fairly low nowadays. It's a very biased graph, with what appear to be made up numbers.
Yeah, I didn't mean it tested you on Science itself... I meant it tested you from a scientific perspective of intelligence as the IQ test was invented by scientists. I was tired when I wrote that before -.-
Why don't we go back to the topic of this thread which is "are relegious people ****ing retarded?" not "was hitler Christian?"
Oh, I think I should mention it is inexperienced people over all that rage. I rarely ever see a person who excels in the subject argue. Priests, scientists, bishops, headmasters, etc. Keep that in mind folks.
Well the image of Hitler with the pope was intended to disprove your claim that he put "all religious humans" into concentration camps to convert them, I didn't mean to imply that Hitler was Catholic. Claiming that he did kill or forcibly convert all religious people is either ignorant or dishonest. And again, this doesn't matter. Whatever Hitler's true personal beliefs were, he used whatever was available to control people, and one of those things was religion. It still has no bearing on whether said beliefs are true or not or whether smarter people tend to be more or less religious.
I an completely disregarding absolutely everything you just said, mainly because you just based your point on Hitler being Athiest. You sir, are an idiot. Hitler was a christian, and an INCREDBILY devout one at that. If I do give my views at some point in this thread, then I must disclaim they are views, and not an argument against religion (Im athiest). Another thing that needs to be told is that I value others opinions. I will never speak out against religion unless I feel it is necessary to be debated. I completely respect everyones beliefs, and have nothing against anyone for believing what they do, the same way I strongly hope no one holds anything against me for my beliefs (or lack thereof). In repsponse to the whole "Hurp Derp Religious people are dumb" thing, its not true, but it has its accuracy. I have two friends, both incredibly religious, and pretty smart. They do pretty well in the majority of their exams. BUT, they are ignorance, and ignorance is only an Inch from stupidity. They dont have an open mind for anything (Hypocritical to a degree, I know), especailly theories that go against religion. They attempt to start religious arguments against anyone without the same beliefs as them. And what makes me more pissed about it is that they use stupid examples to prove Gods existence, things which cant be counter argued. Things like "So where did Gravity come from? Explain that. You cant, so there." And as much as you argue back against it, telling how that doesnt prove anything, they just refer back to it. TL;DR It isnt stupidity. Its ignorance. The most devout christians are sometimes completly ignorant. Another thing which must be said about me is that I wont argue unless its needed. If someone calmly explains their belifs to me, I will discuss them, and respect them. If someone charges into somewhere saying "Such and such is the only religion" then ill get involved. Also, just something that needs to be stated that Im curious about: How is christianity still sacred? Its being constantly changed, and meanings constantly updated as modern society changes. Point out something to my friend in the bible that contradicts another thing, and he mentions the bible isnt meant to be taken that seriously, just as a guideline and lalalalala. It doesnt make much sense how a religion is still worshipped when everything that was worshipped as holy is changing. Everything from Ceremonies to views are changing, and it doesnt make sense. Certain things that were once deemed evil by the church are fine now. So basically, people may as well be changing religions every few years. Its as if someones leading them around, and they dont care about what the leader is talking about, they only care that they are being led. I have more to say, but until I feel the need to say it, my rant is finished. For now...
Hitler was a Christian. ZOINKS! If you identify yourself with a group, for all intensive purposes you are a part of that group. Don't do the "Hitler did bad things and Christianity isn't about doing bad things" routine. Christians who picket the funerals of homosexuals are still Christians. Also, I may have mentioned this is off topic.
Not really. A Christian is someone who genuinely believes that Jesus Christ died for their sins and they pursue a relationship with Christ throughout their lives. As for the select few Christians who picket at funerals...well they are just stupid and as we all know it only takes a few idiots to give an entire group of people a bad name sadly.
Can you prove that he didn't? No? Hitler said he was a Christian, so for lack of evidence to the contrary, he was one, or at least more likely to have been a Christian than not. A little childish. And yet you'd have no qualm in calling them Christians, because of what they believe. You'd never extend the same courtesy to Hitler though, and call him "misguided", because it's obvious how bad that would make Christians look. For the record, we're arguing the validity of studies suggesting that the religious are, on average, less intelligent.
Alright, this topic was a hell of a lot better when it was ON TOPIC. I mentioned it once, and slighlty. Lets get back on topic.
I think that whether or not Hitler or Newton or Einstein was a Christian is totally irrelevant to anything having to do with condemnation or validation of Christianity.
Not really, Hitler didn't murder thousands of people, he told other people to do it for him. I'm sure some of those "insensitive people" would too given the chance. Let's put Hitler to bed.
That's a mighty big assumption. On topic I find it hard to have much of a discussion based on a picture graph with no source. In all fairness I get the vibe that many people are willing to do anything to stereotype people of faith as being less intelligent. Those stigmas come from a few people who give the rest of the Christian (or any religion really) a bad name. I went to a Christian college and I know for a fact that my Astronomy professor (head of the physics department) is probably leaps and bounds beyond us in intelligence. Faith and science are not mutually exclusive. The reason non-religious people appear smarter is that they devote more of their lives to finding what they believe to be the truth. That's not to say that science isn't true. It is, if you can test it and gather the results then yes it's crazy to ignore it. But while all truths are obviously not in the Bible, the Bible itself I believe to be true. Then you have people of faith who don't spend enough time studying science so when asked they appear less intelligent. I personally think both extremes show a lack of intellect. Ignoring science isn't smart, and ignoring the presence of God is more dangerous than anything.