I hate armor lock. This ruined Halo Reach for me. I want to sell this game just because of armor lock. It is totally unbalanced and it's not Halo. I don't know what Bungie was thinking. Between armor lock and the removal of VIP, I will be looking forward to the new COD. Flame me if you want, I don't give a hoot.
Ironic, I find armor lock to be the most useless armor ability out of all of them. Even worse than hologram.
I just played Arena for the first time in ages, I got tired of people screwing me over to ensure they get in the top 4 instead of me a while back, but thought I'd better try and get used to it again since I'm gonna try running 4s soon. What I found left me no other moral choice than to bump this thread. Seriously, if I thought it was bad before then I had no idea. The 4 games I've played today have left me in serious risk of going bald through rage. Whoever thought that putting AL in Arena was a good idea seriously needs to get up close and personal with some rusty, blunt lobotomy surgical tools. Without anaesthetic. Suck at Halo? Well this season of Arena will be right up your street!
It's funny how people's opinions are so different. I get a LOT of use out of hologram - depending on the map it's usually my favorite armor ability (on some maps I do prefer jet pack). It's a very handy misdirection tool.
I've heard my friends making them same complaints about armour lock. What bugs me is when people are using it and they complain about. There are 5 loadouts! Why did you choose armour lock if you know you don't like using it?!?! I've also heard people screaming down the mic about people camping with AC. They seem unaware that you should be alert for AC users when your radar goes crazy!
I think the problem lies with how long armor lock lasts. Right now it just slows the game down dreadfully. You get someone who goes into armor lock and just sits there for 5-6 seconds, waiting for something to happen. If they would keep everything the same, and just lowered the time it lasted to 2 seconds, it would go a long way to balancing it. It would be more like a "get out of jail free card" to survive some certain death situations like getting hit with a rocket or getting stuck, rather then just being a way to stall someone until your team can get him off your back. Of course Bungie usually doesn't do many "balance patches" besides removing something completely so I no0t too hopeful this will get fixed. It really doesn't ruin the game, just makes it annoying. And remember folks, the best way to get something fixed is to abuse the hell out of it.
I really don't see it has that much of a problem. Once in a while there's a match where someone is REALLY good with it- they have 8 medals for surviving in armor lock and they are +15 at the end of the game. Even so, its a rarity. I find most people that use armor lock are just trying to blow up vehicles, or just plain don't know how to use it. I get a lot of use out of all of the AA's, I mean I literally use all of them at some point. Depends on the map, gametype, and the people I'm playing with... but they have their uses. If you want to sell the game because of it, than I feel sorry for you
The problem in my experience is whole teams who use it. Again, this isn't a universal problem since it would be much easier to counter if I weren't going in on my own, but it just seems a little odd to alienate people who don't run as a 4, even if it is Arena. Example, I was playing not even an hour ago in Arena and got Powerhouse. I initiate a battle with a guy below the cranes, we're both full shields. I take him one shot and still have half my shields left, he goes in to AL. His team mate pops out just as he does so, so I immediately switch targets to him (still being 2 shots down since he is also full shields) and take him one shot as well. He also knocks my shields off, then he goes in to AL as well. A third team mate of theirs dashes in and cleans me up as I make a futile attempt to run for cover in bottom Powerhouse. So please, tell me exactly what I did wrong there to outshoot 2 consecutive opponents in quick enough succession that my single shield had to last through both, getting absolutely no kills and dying as a result. Sure this doesn't happen every game, but it happens enough to make Arena quite frustrating right now. Just because something isn't so broken that it ruins every single game, only damaging some a reasonable amount, doesn't mean it isn't still broken and could do with fixing. Right now I'm not even talking about removing or even balancing AL in the game as a whole, I just find it frankly staggering that they thought Arena was the best place for it. Seriously, Sprint, Holo and AL, what kind of combination is that for Arena? It feels just slightly like Bungie are so desperate for competitive players to accept AL that they're forcing it down their throats in an attempt to make them like it. Even if you accept the premise of it enhancing the casual experience, which I find a fair one in general, why then also put it in the place which is supposed to be about competitive play? Bungie seem happy to accept that casual players don't like being stuck with just a DMR and no trackers, and think it fair enough (which it is), so why are the competitive players forced to put up with something that they, for the most part, can't stand either? It just seems mindless, and even if it is just a test to see how AL works in a competitive environment, that isn't really something that should need testing. It's like dropping a fox in a hen house 'to see what happens.'
Did you just quote yourself? yes, i did b/c i think that this would be a pretty good solution. @everybody else - AL is an ok load-out, if you use with a teammate, by yourself its pointless! but there are still a few NEGATIVES i think it has and should be addressed by bungie... ONE - if you stick a guy BEFORE he power punches, that should kill him. Period. TWO - you should not be able to power punch the floor 3 TIMES before you have to recharge your AL...everyone knows what im talking about. The epic lock-down fight to see who can lock-down, punch, lock-down, punch...the best/fastest! THREE - this is tough, but i dont think the EMP should drop my shield (vehicles yes) sometimes you cant help it to move toward a AL'er if your getting shot in your back, but to go from him being one shot and you full health to both no shields b/c of EMP....hmmmmmmmm feel free to quote those and respond (no flame) im interested in what everyone else thinks about THESE points *side note, don't argue with Pegasi, he will rape you with his rebuttal...
I agree with #1 and #2, but not 3, because it can be used sometimes as a strategic move, and won't be in affect if you're only down for like a second. My #3 would be to reduce the run time to 2 seconds, and have 2 uses per full charge, like evade
don't you think they (bungie) considered these things while they were developing/constantly playing the game? I'm sure there was a more powerful AL in an earlier build that would REALLY be broken. In fact, wasn't it more powerful in the beta? I just doubt they'll ever change anything about it. This particular armor ability is about surviving massive damage. if you take much of that away, its pretty useless.
I don't necessarily want it to be useful against a melee, I was just saying it wasn't and it isn't that useful against vehicles if your smart you can see if someone has armor lock if don't have time for that ram them with enough force to kill them but not enough to blow you up. I'lld be happy if it went back to way it was in beta but shields don't recharge while you where in it at all but thats just my opinion. But I can still use it (mainly in invasion and firefight though ) Does annoy me when a hole team has armor lock though I like having variety in my teams and there's.
i dont remember how it was like in the beta. and to your other point about the testing part. im sure they nerffed the original AL ability, but i think there are TWO different arguments coming from people about the balance issues. those being people who play the game more COMPETITIVE and those who play more RECREATIONAL. tell me if im wrong here but i think there will never be a middle between the two sides... i lean more towards the COMPETITIVE side...i play FPS to absolutely win/embarrass the other team. i hate losing, but also i can take a loss (im not that hardcore!) so i think the argument from this side is its too strong b/c i "should" have killed you, but you AL'd and now have a second chance or got away.... i also think the RECREATIONAL side has valid points too. i like the fact that i can step into a room, not aware of whats on the other side and have a chance to weaken shields for a good clean-up OR have a chance at winning some battles that in others words the other team would have had the upper hand if it wasn't for AL! so i say to you gamertag, i think bungie did more testing for the "fun/rec" side of the game (I.E. space in zealot, it was never meant for teams to camp up there. but we all did!) so the casual and slight competitive people would use AL to survive that extra few moments. where as the competitive/hardcore side would i guess, how can i say this, "get-use-to-it!" so tell me if im wrong, but i think that settles it! there is no right answer, but i think people should start their posts off with what side they are arguing to help back their points as why some of us LOVE it, and some of us want to BURN their 360's b/c of it!
maybe I just get defensive cause I love the game, and have no problems with it. I play to win, but if I lose because the other team is all armor locking... I don't let it ruin my day. Sometimes, you are bested. it just happens. I think I just need to stop reading/posting in these whining/bitching about aspects of the game threads because I just hate the attitude.
Not going to be dicked with reading this entire thread but I'll give my two cents on the subject. On small maps, Armor Lock is too powerful. On large maps, it's outclassed by the Drop Shield which is more balanced and assists your team and not just yourself. Armor Lock was designed with the idea that it would help defend you against grenades and for teamplay. The problem is, the average Halo player is completely ****ing retarded and uses it when they're about to die even when they have no hope of being saved by anyone, (why Armor Lock is still in Free-For-All is beyond me,) thus halting gameplay. Now I normally have no problem with Halo having slower paced gameplay because that allows some time for people to map out what to do next in their head but Armor Lock almost completely stops it and wastes time. Adding on to what the average player usually does in a close quarters or dire situation is throw as many grenades as possible and jump backwards, completely disregarding their actual weapon. This is an extremely bad habit most Halo players have and refuse to admit that they do it (hell, even I do it sometimes even when I try not to.) This is what Armor Lock was supposed to prevent but why bother adding that in when you can simply just change it so people only spawn with one grenade? Ever since Reach has been released, I have been saying that FFA, 4v4, and any other gametypes on small maps should be played with one grenades. Bungie plans on making this change to Arena in the next playlist update. The reasoning for this is nothing but positive. For one, it forces players to think before throwing grenades and to use them as tools for getting the drop on someone and not like Martyrdom from Call of Duty 4. It also will end up making Armor Lock useless for it's intended purpose and thus much more powerful so removing it is the only option to balance it out in that regard. Finally, this will shed light on the bad players who rely on backpedal grenade throws whenever they aren't prepared for a fight and forcing them to adapt to better habits like knowing when to run from a firefight. You might be thinking that this change will probably be positive in Big Team Battle and Invasion gametypes as well. Truth is, they aren't. Big Team Battle doesn't need Armor Lock because the maps are generally larger and much more open. Chances are, if you go into Armor Lock on say, Blood Gulch, you're just asking to get popped in the head when you break out of it and there will probably no instances where someone can save you because enemies are everywhere. For this instance, and this instance alone, the Drop Shield is a much more suitable replacement for reason that should be clear. That doesn't mean Drop Shield shouldn't be in every BTB map, but only the largest and most open maps and as far as grenade count goes in Big Team Battle, 2 grenades is and will always remain fine judging not just by the map size, but the vehicle combat as well. Considering vehicles are already very powerful in the right hands, one grenade could make them unstoppable so it's justified. Besides, there isn't much grenade spam in BTB anyway (save Countdown but that's Bungie's fault for putting it in BTB.) Invasion is it's own ball game and up to the map and gametype creator to determine whether it works or not. So what is Armor Lock considered acceptable for? Elite Slayer. Both in Big Team and 4v4. My only change to Elite Slayer would be removing Plasma Pistol secondaries from Needle Rifle loadouts and swapping the Needler with a Repeater for Armor Lock loadouts but this isn't a thread about Elite Slayer so I won't dive into too much detail. Basically, the balancing issues aren't with Armor Lock itself, it's with the maps, gametypes, and the actual players of the game. The best way to fix it is to remove it and rework everything else to compensate for it's loss and promote much more positive gameplay habits. If any of my points were made anywhere in this thread previously, I apologize. If not, take some of them into consideration and go beyond thinking about the weapon/equipment/whatever and start thinking about how the game itself and what the actual playerbase is doing to affect how it is being used. This kind of thinking can be applied to just about any game out of there and usually is. In fact, it's a key factor in making a successful map as well. Good Lord that was a long post. I hope some people actually read this ****.
I read all of that, and liked the angle you put on it. You addressed the issues with AL not from a highly competitive, MLG-esque standpoint (which is the mentality I approach it with, since it's how I play and enjoy Halo, thus the angle on which I feel strongest commenting in detail), but from the wider approach of Reach as a complete game. I would say that your point about AL not being unbalanced, but rather the maps, gametypes and players themselves is sort of a false logic, since they make up the wider sandbox which AL has a responsibility to fit in to (and in the case of player mentalities and habits, this is something Bungie doesn't have control over, and so sandbox elements must be bent towards it rather than the other way around). It's not even a case of AA's in general being at odds with these more numerous and basic gameplay elements, but one specific AA, which (imo) means the onus should totally be on said AA when considering which element is unbalanced and 'at fault'. I know I'm nitpicking here, since the end conclusion of both schools of thought is the same, but I just can't stand to see AL get off lightly in any critique of balance . Good post. I agree with your thoughts, your approach, plus it was nicely formed and structured as well. EDIT: AL loadout removed for Season 4 of Arena. Kinda disappointed not to see JP put back in as a replacement though, it was for Dubs but not for 4v4.
It's because Armor Lock is like a ****-Block. Every time I'm expecting a kill, Armor lock **** blocks me. Did anyone else notice that when you're AL'ing, you bend down, and get covered in white stuff? Other than that, I think it's extremely balanced. People just get angry because they feel like they've wasted grenades, and they don't get kills when they wanted to. AL does not work as much people think it does. I've found several flaws with it. 1. When people are AL'ing after their shields are low, ignore them, and take care of the teammates. RARELY will they come out of AL. They're not that smart, because they're too worried about their own shields to come out of it. If he/she does come out of AL before it burns up, then immediately switch targets and shoot them. 2. If people are armor locking because of nades, then filter your nades. Let your teammates waste their nades. This keeps the guy forced into armor lock until he runs out of AL. Then nade him one second before he gets up. 3. If people Armor Lock because of Rockets, shoot the FIRST rocket only. The AL user's first and only response is to AL for a split second, then unlock to get you to thinking you have them, and then they AL again. Just wait for them to armor lock a second time, because they'll be out of AL then, and THEN shoot your rocket. But if they have a teammate, by all means, shoot at his teammate. RULES 2 AND 3 WILL SOMETIMES APPLY WITH RULE 1. PLEASE don't sit there and stare at the AL guy, and take out the TEAM INSTEAD. Be it with nades or rockets. Almost EVERYONE forgets that when the person is AL'ing, HE IS USELESS. He's not helping anyone but himself and, if you do it right, you. Most of the time people are sitting there STARING the AL User in the face like an idiot, waiting for the AL to run out, and the AL user's team comes in and cleans up the mess; I am always the only one shooting at the other team at this point. Which is retarded, because I can't face 4 on 1 with only a DMR and their whole team in melee'ing me.
Ladnil has pretty much done this point to death. Skilled players often do come out of AL and take the opportunity to shoot you after you've either turned your back or begun to engage their team mate. They're the ones we're really talking about, since you should not have to be significantly better than your opponent for an AL to work out as balanced. Any discussion of balance should work on the premise of two (at least roughly) equally skilled players engaging on roughly even terms. If the premise isn't one of balance, the outcome is never going to be, so discussing whether the AA (or any other gameplay aspect) is balanced is working from a flawed basis, and therefore senseless. Even then, the problem with this example and use of AL is that it almost ensures (in anything close to a coordinated team setting, or just one where players are aware of their allies' waypoints enough to jump in to a battle when they notice it) that any 1v1 encounter can be turned in to a 2v1 encounter in favour of the AL player. This is a fair point overall. But again, have you not found that decent people work out the timing on AL kicking in pretty quickly, and are thus able to negate even the most timely and well placed nade simply by dropping in to AL for a split second? When nading from anything past CQB (where nading is a pretty bad idea anyway), they have time to drop in to AL and negate the damage. Considering that you spawn with 2 nades, and they have 3 chances to do this in a single charge of AL, I think this is another clear problem demonstrated by numbers alone. Again, a fair point in principle, and if you're trigger happy with rockets and automatically shoot two then on your own head be it. But, once again, the point I outlined above applies in pretty much the same terms. Rockets, like nades, are explosives and thus at their optimal range when at anything beyond CQB range (to avoid damaging yourself). This is one of the onuses of skill when using rockets in particular, being aware enough to use them at some range, and the longer that range is the more skill is required to predict enemy movement and aim accordingly, accounting for travel time exactly. The ability to drop in to AL so quickly negates this skillset quite a lot, since it is at these ranges where a simple understanding of AL timing can negate one rocket after another even if you wait to fire the second. They're still able to AL burst again for the second rocket, and again the sheer numbers of 2 rockets per clip (with a significant reload time where you are not only useless, just like an AL guy, but also vulnerable) vs. 3 AL bursts per charge simply doesn't add up to balanced imo. Sure, there is a happy medium of range past CQB but before mid-long range where you can, if you time it just right, fire the second rocket in time for them to exit AL without being able to re-enter it in time to avoid death, but this is a very narrow window of effectiveness for arguably the most powerful power weapon in the game (something that is fought for and should provide advantage) against an AA which is available from spawn. These comments always work on the assumption that someone has gone in to AL without hurting you at all, why would anyone do that? Take the example of a simple firefight, be that with DMR, AR or Pistol: More often than not with even slightly decent players, the AL guy will only activate it when he has been taken one shot, since this is the moment where he becomes most vulnerable and it's in his best interests to become invulnerable. At this point, his opponent is often either one shot or close to, meaning that simply switching targets to another opponent who is likely either full shields or at least shots up is simply an unfair proposition. I once again cite this example that I posted before: Your examples of AL are very specific and hardly encompass the wide variety of situations in which it, frankly, screws people over. If you're in a 1v1 encounter and the guy goes in to AL, what if there isn't a team mate of his around that you can directly switch to? Counting upon a 2v1 situation against the non AL guy is a very narrow and unfair premise to argue from as an overall assessment of balance, since the single player is already at a disadvantage even without AL. If there are two players vs 1, that 1 is likely getting team shot anyway, so switching to a fully shielded opponent from the player that he has already weakened isn't likely to do much good in the long run. The only situations in which your examples hold some weight are, to be brutally honest, with complete morons of players on both teams (without including you in this description). I admit that a large number of players I either encounter or get teamed with fall under this category, but plenty of others don't. When players are on a level pegging and don't simply walk around with their thumbs in their asses relying solely on nade and melee spamming to get any kills, AL can be used extremely effectively to win battles that simply should not have been won by the player in question. You just can't assume on the player using AL being stupid enough to give you the kill even though their chosen AA has the ability to negate so many different things that you can do, things which take more skill and strategy than simply pressing your AA button. It's not even as if there's a decent skill curve in using AL, once you get a basic feel for it and learn the timing you're done, fully prepared and ready to go out and negate superior opponent skill or strategy almost to your heart's content.
Pegasi, I obviously don't play as much Halo as you. I'm sure you can understand that. I know there's a LOT of details I've left out. Mainly because I'm thinking Team Slayer, and not Team Arena. Everybody sucks in Team Slayer, so that's why I'm explaining the basics. Where the idiots do exactly as I have said in the above. I never go into Arena anymore because it's always me vs. blue/red team. My team doesn't get kills, or they quit. Like you've said above, I'm sure you play against that a lot, and so have I. Where my main strategy is to be patient, and keep my distance, (or place myself in easy get away spots) and change my movements swiftly and carefully accordingly to theirs. This is what has always worked for me if I'm not using my thick skull to headbutt the controller or the TV. However, even if I did tell the other people to do that, they won't do that. So that's why I don't say much in my description. Obviously the world of Halo and it's players is much more complicated than three steps. I'm not going to make a "skill tree" like format to explain everything out there. I'd probably run out of characters to use because of all of the possibilities.
If you check my game history you'll see that I've played just over 900 games of TS and fewer than 100 in Arena (and that's including dubs). I, too, am talking about TS. Fair enough, it was just the way you said that it was balanced in your opinion, then proceeded to explain those various points. There's a difference between AL not being too overpowered in your particular experience, which even you have admitted is limited, and it being an overall balanced addition to the game, ie. the subject of this thread. However, for the context you have now made clear, your points are well made.