Need Map Design Advice

Discussion in 'Halo and Forge Discussion' started by Falmung, Oct 22, 2010.

  1. Falmung

    Falmung Forerunner

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    Hello there forgers.I just started out with forge so I really have no real experience what so ever. I've been looking around several threads to learn more about how to make forge maps. I tried out Google Sketchup with Mickraider's Objects. I read around Nasty's tips and some quake 3 map design guide. I need some help with some aspects of forge. Any links or tips would be appreciated.

    1-Initial Map Design - I feel somehow more clear on maps but I still can't come up with a initial map design. I'm still stuck at the sketch of the basic layout of the map. I want tips on how to do draw a map sketch which has enough information to accurately portray what I'm trying to imagine. I find displaying different floors and elevation difficult. Any tips you can provide on how to create basic layouts of maps would be helpful.

    2-Scale - I would really like some advice on measurement and scale. How do you measure a map on halo reach? How small does a map need to be or how big does it need to be depending on the amount of players? How do you measure a map from sketch and google sketchup towards actual forge.

    3-Build Order - So far I know first I design the map on a sketch then I either try it on google sketchup or head straight to forge. But after that I'm quite lost. What part do I start first? Do I start from top to down? left to right? One base first or one floor first?

    4 - Balance - How do I balance my map? How do I make my map's geometry a cover instead of having a cluttered mess as cover? How do I get towards establishing how many power weapons and what type of should that specific map have?

    This is all I can think off for now but I'm sure more doubts will arise as I get deeper and deeper into the map. I know I'm asking a lot of questions. Please feel free to answer whichever you can help the most. I want to improve to the point I can make fun and well made maps people can enjoy. But I can't do it alone. I need the help of you fellow forgers.

    If you have any other tips that might be of help to me and many others who might be in the same boat as me please feel free to post them. I'll take any knowledge I can use.
     
  2. pyro

    pyro The Joker
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    1. Using tracing paper for different levels of a map in the final design.
    2. Just walk around your map, or drop a vehicle every once in a while to see about movement.
    3. Start with whatever depends most on the terrain of whatever you are forging. It's best to start with something that must be in a certain place then base other locations off of that.
    4. Try to put some love into both sides of the map. For asymmetrical maps, people all too often make one side a masterpiece, and ignore the other side until later when they just end up rushing to finish the map. Power weapons need to be taken into consideration with the map's design. In invasion, you can just put all your efforts into the defenders base, and give the attackers vehicles and weapons to break through the defenses, but in symmetrical gametypes the terrain needs to be balanced.
     
  3. Insane54

    Insane54 Ancient
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    1. Personally, you don't really need to portray what you want as long as you're getting your raw ideas down on paper. I know my sketches look much more messy than those nice little aesthetic pictures you see around, but it's me working out gameplay ideas instead of saying "this structure looks fun!". Then I'll think about it, try to think about how the design will play out, and keep adjusting till I'm happy enough to move on. That's generally taken around 50 re-sketches until I'm satisfied. I'm by no means the best or anything like that, but I find that approach to work well.

    Here's my first sketch of MLG Requiem, haha: http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/mooinsanecl/epicmap2b-1.jpg

    2. Again, this you can try to figure out from your own gameplay experience what you want. You'll find that the geometry is more of a factor on gameplay than scale, which is just kind of making it bigger or smaller. Once you've worked out a gameplay style you like, it's simple to decide how big to make it, just look at one important area or field of vision and say "I want this to be about _____" long. And then scale everything around that.

    3. That's a tough one....:p

    4. Ideally, you don't need to worry about cover, at all. Take Guardian's general layout, and you'll notice that you move from room to room and advantage/disadvantage. That's what makes it a great map. If it was Gears of War, cover is necessary. But since this is Halo, if you can make a game all about pros/cons, various options, and not about the cover, that's the ideal. It's definitely one of the tougher things to do, but it's directly correlated with your design. Once you've thrown down the design and you find people getting trapped without options in a test game, THEN look into putting in cover. Note that getting trapped doesn't mean like someone rushing straight down the middle of Guardian (notice there's no cover there? If there was, it just wouldn't play as well as it did), as that was a clear decision to go for a faster route at the risk of being killed and not having anywhere to escape to.

    A while ago, myself and MickRaider wrote a map design theory guide that I think is still relatively relevant, it's more about the mindset of design rather than "information", but hopefully you find it useful. The main thing is not to look at what someone tells you to do and do it, figure out why things are, what works and why, what doesn't work and why, and so on. That lets you develop your own map design style, instead of a mutation of someone else's style.

    Good luck!
     
  4. Falmung

    Falmung Forerunner

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    Thanks for your replies Pyro and Insane. They are very helpful.

    @Insane Your sketches even though messy do have what I'm trying to do with my sketches. It has a basic layout, has important locations marked across the map, and most useful information about it. But when it comes to maps that are very vertical with several levels then it becomes difficult for me to visualize it on paper. I really liked how GunnerGrunt did his sketch of Vanilla. I could see every part of the map just by looking at his sketch.

    Yeah you're totally right about Guardian. The rooms itself would be a kind of cover since it breaks the line of sight. Safer routes would be longer while routes that are faster or have power weapons near them would be riskier.

    @pyro Yeah when I get one side looking good I always get impatient with the second side wanting to be done and I rush it.
     
  5. Insane54

    Insane54 Ancient
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    Forgot to mention that that article we wrote is in the Forging 201 section, in the Halo 3 map area. It should still be mostly relevant though.
     
  6. PILGRIM

    PILGRIM Ancient
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    That needs to be moved accross and reachified
     
  7. Falmung

    Falmung Forerunner

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  8. Ladnil

    Ladnil Ancient
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    From the thing in my sig:
    "Know what you want to do before you begin, and never ever forget or stray from it. Know where the power positions are and how powerful they are relative to each other and to the rest of the map. Know which positions can challenge the power positions. Know which direction you want to funnel players towards. Know which major lines of sight you want to enable and even more importantly know which you want to block.

    You don't have to have a complete design before you begin forging, but the product you're aiming for should be firm in your mind from start to finish. Without that, you end up with just a group of structures or, even worse, some cover distributed in a room. There are hundreds of maps here which were very obviously not planned or even thought about before they were constructed. I can't put into words how to identify such maps easily, but once you've worked with forge a bit and experienced the design process firsthand, you'll know them when you see them. They're everywhere."

    You only really need to have the "big idea" stuff planned in advance. The details are what you're going to tweak when testing reveals flaws.

    Just gotta trust your feelings on this one I guess. If it helps, Zealot is a circle with radius 13.9 if you wanted to compare to that for scaling purposes.

    For a symmetrical map, definitely start from the middle. It makes it easy to maintain symmetry. If your map is floating you can even center your map at a nice easy coordinate like (0,0) for further ease of symmetry. Asymmetric maps you can begin just about anywhere really. Probably the area that is the most complex is where I'd start, and then reference that for all other areas.

    Also, just as planning is just the big idea stuff and details can be worked out later, build the big idea stuff first. Get your floors built and your major line of sight killing structures in place before you get bogged down in railings and cover and weapons and spawns and aesthetics.

    For geometry instead of just cover as cover, make it big and connected. Your walls should be bulky enough to really give the impression that the two sides of them are distinctly separate spaces. Basically think about the difference between the top towers on MLG Onslaught in Halo 3, which was based on Midship, and the top pink tower on Midship. Pink tower has an actual room there with bulkier cover and a fully enclosed roof. It's still "cover" but the fact that it's all connected and integrated into the geometry of the map makes it structure instead of just cover like the A/B signs on Onslaught.

    For a super easy way to mask lazy cover, give your map a roof and connect the cover floor to ceiling. Brace, Larges and Block, 1x1 talls are great objects for connecting like that, and the object looks like it's a functional piece of architecture instead of just something the creator put there to fill space, even if it really is just something you put there to fill space.
     
    #8 Ladnil, Oct 23, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
  9. Falmung

    Falmung Forerunner

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    That's the feeling I was starting to get when I started to forge without a concrete design in mind. I ended with a group of structures which I had no idea what to do with them. I was creating the map randomly without purpose. Then I started struggling in what direction to use the forge pieces and so on. Then I started to mix a lot of stuff and the map turned into a mess.

    Thanks for all your input Ladnill. It was a nice read.
     

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