Others might, but not me. It would make maps much cleaner and easier on the eye. It would be even better if they included a way to change the coloration to help define areas of the map. The way I see it, we've been given cake with sprinkles, and I'm asking for just the cake. It doesn't really resemble Construct in any way.
See I havent had I problem with the lag, although saying that my maps have been quite expansive and the structures have been spread out. Perhaps I havent noticed it yet.
I have to say I completely agree with this. I enjoyed forging on both Foundry and Sandbox because the majority of the objects had fairly basic shapes. I think that Bungie were too intent on remaking a map in forge, and because of that they ended up with alot of objects which were designed specifically for the remake they were trying to remake at the time. I think that they should have spent more time designing items in shapes that forgers commonly use.
Stand at sniper spawn on Asylum. Scope with the sniper down towards the other sniper, observe as your frames per second get cut in half. Picture that but on a map built floating in the sky and with more complexity than Sanctuary.
Im at work at the moment but I'll try that when I get home. I'll be honest though I'm not familair with the new maps yet, is Asylum one of the ones built in forge world? If so could part of the problem be that people are building their maps floating in the sky with no anchor point? (I.E. a place where the map touches a land mass) Another thought would be that, there's a great deal of wasted processing power on loading the remainder of forge world, perhaps you should be able to choose which region of the map you wish to manipulate by using some form of grid system. Just a thought though..
The two maps have completely different layouts. Countdown may have been inspired by construct, but saying it's a remake is completely untrue. I know what you mean, yeah. Though that's what block, 5x5s are for. There are flat versions for most types of blocks, which basically replace walls now. I see no point in the double wall at this point, but it's nice to have. This entire thread is a gigantic gripe, though Chan and many others have made excellent points about what could be improved. I'm sorry, though, after rereading my previous comment I understand I sounded like quite the asshole. I'm just tired of people pointing out the flaws in Reach when there are so many improvements. People just can't be satisfied.
Personally, while I agree that there are problems with ForgeWorld, and I'm with you guys on most of the items up there in the OP, I think that Bungie may yet have some tricks up their sleeves, in downloadable map packs (because they are still doing those, right?). Remember, they went from the basic maps like Valhalla and The Pit with Halo 3, and then gave us Foundry which made us crap a brick at first? And then we all quickly realized Foundry's essential problems, and they gave us Sandbox, which, while having some issues of it's own, beat out the previous Forge map generations. Why should ForgeWorld not continue that trend? ForgeWorld, while having it's limitations, is in many way vastly superior to its predecessors. Who says they won't give us a new ForgeWorld in an upcoming map pack? I personally think that while they've given us ForgeWorld, which is grassy/mountainous terrain, they could easily make a desert-themed map similar to ForgeWorld but with newer and in some cases better stuff in it, or even a blank urban environment. I'm not going to start up a "What would you like to see in ForgeWorld 2???" discussion, but there is room for improvement, and who says we'll only get one ForgeWorld-esque map? Hell, I'd pay the 200 points or whatever just for another ForgeWorld-like area, let alone for any other maps that come with it.
Amen to that, I recon they will have a palet in the works using some of the reach city scape which we have already seen in the campaign both rural and metropolitan. Personally I think that would be cool!
Agreed that the budget is pretty dumb. Items are grouped in nonsensical ways (does the game really care about the miniscule difference between a ramp and a wall anywhere near as much as it does about the massive difference between a plain wall and a decorated wall or a wall and a doorway?) and there are two separate budget systems so that you have to use awkward items to fill gaps when, again, the game doesn't know the difference. Honestly to me it seems like they held back a lot of stuff to sell in dlc. Making items for something like this isn't work. It's stuff you yourself (any of you) could do with a texture pack and 3ds max and about thirty minutes to look at some basic tutorials. It's child's play. Also while the textures might take up some space on the disc different shaped objects really do not, until you start talking about something like a vehicle or character model that has hundreds or thousands of polygons and animations and all that. There is no real reason to have such a narrow variety of objects if you're restricting the system to lego style manipulations, it doesn't take much time or disc space to beef it up so you have a steady progression of walls from double to coliseum, so that you have all kinds of angles and intersections to avoid the necessity to overlap. And a texture switching tool? How hard would that have been, seriously. And just one more piece of data, no more complicated than the x coordinate, to tell the game which texture it is. If they had really wanted it to be flexible, why not keep the nice intricate pieces they have for decoration where they're appropriate then have a simple box editor? You choose rectangular prism, triangular prism, cone, pyramid, cylinder, sphere, whatever basic shape you want then simply scale the dimensions the same way you do for the fields for things like capture zones, hills, etc, then you pick a texture like metal wood stone plastic concrete, etc. It would increase map size, of course, that's a couple more bits of information about each object, but the maps would still be pretty tiny if the budget remained as limiting as it is now - i've played some pretty massive and complex maps on hl2 and they load up in a flash, it's only people's custom textures and sound effects which slow things down (which this wouldn't have), and there's no way reach would have a budget that would allow you to make some of those maps (for instance rooms or whole apartments recreated at mouse scale, right down to all the random junk you would find in real life acting as physics objects). The main thing about custom blocks though, or better yet a simple POLYGON EDITOR, ffs, would be you eliminate clipping. This forge lag you talk about, it's because every forge map is basically horribly inefficient. You talk about lines of sight but unless halo reach uses raycasting or something to draw the image on the user's screen then really the gpu is still rendering every single piece on the map, and you see what's on top. That's why in more functional editors you make sure EVERY single object meets edge to edge rather than overlapping, and when you're done with the map you go over it and delete EVERY single polygon that the user will not see. That means the walls where two blocks meet, the backs of walls at the edges of the maps, the backs of all those mountains and terrain in forge world that you wouldn't see where your map is restricted to, the insides of buildings that have been sealed off, the tops of things that are above where the player will be able to reach. ALL of that crap does not exist in real maps, as you'll notice when you shoot yourself out of them. Any surface that is not needed is just map maker sloppiness, and unecessarily limits the frame rate. Basically any time you're running a forge map you're probably wasting minimum half the processing power on crap you don't need, way way more if you've built a tight interior map, or a map with a lot of overlap to create shapes not available in the object lists. A box editor would solve the problems with overlap, making it a more functional polygon editor would allow us to do away with all those wasted surfaces we never see. Not to mention either would allow us to create new terrain, which is going to be sorely lacking unless they expand forge world massively. I know its gripy, and forge is really impressive for console editor efforts. As someone else said far cry two had gameplay that was just bad enough to overcome the editor, and really the only thing the editor had that was impressive for the consoles is terrain mapping, the other stuff was all drag and drop and mostly whole structures so you really couldn't do a lot with it. I don't know why bungie didn't include that, because terrain files really aren't that gigantic either especially for the size of most halo maps, but still the rest of their editor is more flexible. Its good for consoles but I just feel that they're going to continue to milk the thing, and also that they purposefully handicapped it to keep custom content from lowering dlc sales (though really they could have kept those up by including a forge object or terrain pack in each dlc release). If not then why did they include no server browser or other convenient way to play custom content? Its not exactly something you can play all the time whenever you want, especially if you're not a long time forger with a friend list already built up specifically for that. Anyway sorry for the rant, its just really annoying that console developers get so much more for doing so much less work and giving their customers so much less product than on the pc.
I've been wanting to post this on the Bnet forums where it would matter most, but every time I do it gets lost among all the constant bumps.
I see no reason why that couldn't be the case. Hell, give us a flat, open city map, give us some more traditional buildings (some that cannot be entered, some that can), and give us the rest of the items that we have right now (while making the forerunner-style details into a more futuristic human style), and give us some more scenery, and they'd have an easy-to-produce ForgeWorld 2--call it ForgeCity or whatever. Then make one that a mix of ForgeWorld and Sandtrap/Sandbox, like a big, expansive desert with many different sections (a cave area could be pretty cool, and one of those caves could lead to a colliseum-like area), and give us Sandbox/Sandtrap-type buildings, instead of the buildings we have now or the ForgeCity buildings. Then take all of our basic objects, and keep them the same while making them look like the Sandbox/Sandtrap structures; then give us more scenery (akin to ForgeCity scenery, but with the desert in mind). Bam, you have ForgeDesert. Do the same thing with a jungle-type area, leave numerous large clearings, and let us slam some trees down instead of so many rocks. Give us a glacier-y area like Snowbound and let us put some ice down. Hell, a ForgeWorld-sized map composed solely of a chain of numerous blank islands would be cool, let us put trees and rocks down. There's so many ways they could improve upon what they've done, without even giving us a polygon editor or something. Sure, that would be cool, but we have what we have. Being given numerous other huge blank slates with different environments, new objects and scenery, and more of a budget (if it's possible in a DLC map--I don't know if the budget thing is a restriction based on console abilities or what), would totally be awesome. Even if we had 3 or 4 ForgeWorld-esque maps to choose from, it would improve some of the ForgeWorld issues, since each successive Forge updating improves the overall Forge situation. Would some of the more detailed initial problems still be there? Sure. But are those problems small things to complain about when we've been given so much? In my opinion, yes--provided they release more (and improved) Forge 2.0 possibilities.
*sigh* No matter how good of a Forge map Bungie gives us, people always find a reason to complain about it. It's pathetic.
Yup. Which is why, while I recognize that there are some limitations, I'm more than happy to work within them.
Seconded. They could just base the cost of an item on its disc space in a custom game and remove all other limits, but that would promote abuse of forge. People keep forgetting that putting aesthetics pieces in their maps is not impossible just because Bungie did not make special aesthetic pieces for Forge World or take aesthetics into account for their own Forge World variants.
Lol well it turns out that ForgeCity is already a big thing. I thought of it without seeing anything on it. XD
The maps that Bungie made in Forge World are lagging for a lot of people. If that's not something to complain about, I don't know what is.
Pallets Flamethrower Firebomb Different sized Traxus Boxes Spike Grenade Brute Shot Mauler Barrel Chopper Prowler These were all very useful in Mini Games...
Geometry-wise, I believe the whole thing is amazing. You guys complain about lag? That's ridiculous. So you'd rather have a smaller budget, instead of just being careful about not overloading your map with too many polygons? Welcome to professional level editing Here's what would have made Reach Forge better. - Size adjustment - Color/Texture adjustment (not just little lights that you can barely see if at all) Those two things would make all the bland same-iness of forged maps bearable. - MORE LIGHTS (seriously... two's the limit???) - Colosseum Wall should be called Colosseum Floor and should actually line up properly on the coordinate scale - Finer tuning on the coordinate snapping. - Every single object available across all maps, I want my Forklift Race! - On that note, where's my full allotment of vehicles from the campaign? Truck and offroader would have been awesome in forge. - Further on that note, individual vehicle options should include their own special traits such as what team can use them, which seats are available (turret but not driver), armed and unarmed, ammo, fuel, speed/damage/health percentage, etc) - The Flat Rock is actually flat... - MIRRORED BUILDINGS (Symmetrical maps that utilize certain buildings have to be backwards from each other) - Custom Gametype mode that can utilize all gametypes, similar to Basic Editing but for actual gameplay. This means full scoring options that slayer has, but with CTF and all that good stuff an option as well. - Phase count for Invasion needs to be a toggle-able number and also each phase should be opened up to all gametype objectives. - MORE POWERUPS. Only one custom powerup and you can only use it for certain gametypes - Loadout traits? I may need to look into this one again, but having the full player options (health, damage, etc) for each loadout would be neat. - Specifically for Forge World, I wanted to build a map under the waterfall, and can't. I also wanted to build underwater, but can't. - Ability to simply DELETE ALL KILL BARRIERS. I hate hate hate hate the preset kill barriers, not just in forge, but in the campaign as well. Totally ruined the way I play Halo Campaign, which is to get out of the normal bounds and explore. That said, I believe the place-able kill/safe barriers are a godsend, although they don't adhere to the traits I give them... specifically spawn time. They will be there from the beginning of the game whether you set them that way or not - At least a 16 Instance Allotment of all objects. I want my 16 player Tank Race!!! - Why does race not include every vehicle??? Hell even the Covy turret might have a use for some kind of funky custom race map. - Loadouts should include what vehicle you spawn in if any, for race and crazy custom games like Monster Trucks. - Multiple Gametype Labels on each object. The way this would work is once you give an object a label, another blank Label option appears below which can add another label to the object. This has the potential to be quite powerful if used correctly and would eliminate the need for making a seperate object for the flag spawn and flag capture and other such things. - Copy Object. Don't ask me how this would be implemented, it just needs to be. - NPCs/Enemies as place-able objects with full Trait options on each individual. Basically I want a firefight gametype. Don't get me wrong, all the stuff they've added since Halo 3 is amazing and I think we're all lucky to have Forge at all. But maybe I should just wait for Blizzard to make a Starcraft FPS so we can see a proper sci-fi FPS scriptable map editor