Here I am with another rant, except I've backed it up with a few points that I think most of you can agree on. Feel free to express your own dissatisfaction with Forge World. Don't get me wrong, Forge World and Forge 2.0 are great, and they're definitely a step up from Halo 3 Forge, but it could have been done so much better. Not enough pieces One of the biggest problems that I've noticed right off the bat, and was afraid of, is that there aren't enough pieces. I hear all too often of someone making a remake and complaining that they're running out of pieces. If you look at some of the remakes that have been made already, the budgets are almost to zero. Unless I'm mistaken, the whole reason for a budget is so that you don't place more objects than the engine can render smoothly. If that is indeed true, then that leads me to my main point. With each release of a new Halo game, you'll notice they've all been following a steady trend. With more optimized engines, and better hardware, Bungie has able to add even more complex geometry and higher resolution textures. In my opinion, this has had a negative impact on gameplay and Forge World. There have been countless times where I have died trying to get around a corner to safety and have gotten stuck on some trim or a doorframe. Personally I would rather survive situations like that than to have a pretty map to play on. There are a lot of areas that have been fixed since the beta, which means that Bungie has aknowledged that these problems exist. Too many polygons Anyways...my point is the basic building blocks in Forge world have way too many polygons. It's supposed to make maps look better, but instead makes them messy and hard to read. I have seen significant frame-rate drops in some areas of both stock Reach maps and maps made in Forge World. In one of the first ViDocs for Reach, someone from the art department mentions that they are able have four times as many polygons as they were before. That's nice and all, but they need to make sure the hardware can actually handle it, because apparently, it can't. All the basic building blocks should have been made up of no more than six polygons, and should have had a very basic texture, much like the Colosseum Wall. Floors could be distinguished from walls by allowing the blocks to be changed from a lighter or darker color in the same way that you change which team color the object glows. Model fidelity could be saved for aesthetic pieces like doorframes and railings. Not enough variety There isn't a big enough variety of basic pieces. Instead of modeling all those little aesthetics into the pieces, they should have been making a bigger variety of pieces, big and small. The biggest reason for this is because Forgers are overlapping pieces to achieve a specific shape, causing "Z fighting" (flickering). This is especially common with remakes, where Forgers are trying to stay true to the originals as much as they can. This also leads to very messy looking maps. Budget system is bad The way that objects are categorized and limited by category is awful. You have Colosseum Walls lumped in with mainly aesthetic parts. According to this system, the Colosseum Wall, which has only six polygons, is as costly to draw as a door frame, which has significantly more polygons than the wall. Objects should deduct from the budget relative to how expensive they are to draw. Lack of scenery objects A huge disappointment for Forge World is the lack of pallets, dumpsters, and other pieces that were in Foundry. It's apparent that Bungie did not play a lot of maps made for Halo 3, because they were essential in a lot of maps Gametype options from Halo 3 not carried over to Reach There is also a general lack of options for objects and gametypes that I think would have been easy to include (non-detachable turrets for example). They've also removed many options for gametypes that were previously in Halo 3. I don't really understand why you would want to do this. Grid Snap They added a rotation snap but they should have added a grid snap as well. As you move the piece in any direction, it would jump from one grid point to the next. Filters The color filters should have been condensed down into one that can be adjusted in its object properties. Brightness, contrast, saturation, etc... Most of them are too dark and end up making some areas of your map completely black.
If you're looking for a heavily detailed map maker, I'd suggest looking into FarCry 2. Use Forge World as a basic map making tool, to create rudimentary maps that excell in gameplay, not aesthetic prowess.
He's saying the engine cannot handle the stress the added (unnecessary) polygons conjure up. This is especially apparent when you have too many objects in one space and the framerate drops drastically, in rusty eagle's words "Forge lag." Lag aside, I VASTLY prefer the textures in Foundry and Sandbox. They're more realistic from an aesthetic standpoint (even in campaign, individual segments of covy and forerunner structures were not that detailed) and from a gameplay standpoint as they are extremely disorienting in certain situations.
Indeed, all agreed. I must admit I've said that from the start of entering forgeworld that it could have been done so much better and we were promised so much more from reach. Like "Gametypes have never been more customisable", yet you can't remake HALF of the gametypes that were released on Halo 3. There isn't an option for Team Racing, No Leech/Vampire Attributes, No scoring for kills in any objective gametypes. The only thing that is "more" customisable is the fact theres an invasion gametype that lets you produce scripted gameplay (to an extent) which to most competitive custom gamers, isn't very helpful. All in all, if bungie had put a little more thought into it and a bit more time, the game could have been an amazing Halo 3 beater. Granted, I think it's still better than any call of duty game, but it's not better than it's predecessor. Halo 3 was great for it's complex gameplay that was made simple. You had to be accurate, you miss, tough ****, your now likely to die. Yet, a Miss on Person A, it could ricochet off a wall and snipe Person B. The fact that items can splatter you due to explosions etc... All complicated features intergrated into the game on a simple level. Reach on the other hand, is a simple game, made complex. They've added in too much crap that isn't needed. Fair enough some of the original gameplay features i've just mentioned are still there, even if they arent as effective (like ricochet, hardly any hard surface allows a ricochet bullet now) but they added in weapon bloom, which now means you're only as accurate as the game makes you. As much as you take your time with the last DMR shot, it still sometimes misses and causes you a death. Yet in H3, you shoot at their head, you hit their head, it's not about some system deciding whether you should get a kill or not that's randomly generated. (E.g. I was playing swat last night, I was shooting across map firing once every 2 seconds, I emptied a FULL clip at some guys head, and not one bullet hit his head, they hit chest, arms, legs and eventually some guy on my team fired from behind me once and got a head shot... Fair much?) So yeah, if they'd considered what audience they already provide for were people who perfer Sci-Fi FPS games and don't give a **** about realisticness, they would have produced a game 10x better. Instead, they've tried to jump on COD's band wagon and tried to produce a realistic feeling game... Hate to tell you bungie, as much as you believe it to be real, there are no such things as "Unggoy" and "Sangheli" and there's definately no 8ft tall superhuman's running around in biomechanicular suits of armour protected by an invisible barrier of energy. Added after 2 minutes: Agreed aswell, the ForgeLag is a pain in the arse. I played GunnerGrunt's new map, to which the centre piece is an epic lag fest. So it clearly shows the engine cannot handle as much as they thought.
Quite the opposite actually. I could care less about aesthetics. And Farcry 2's poor gameplay completely negates its amazing editor.
Lol. This is my biggest gripe. Personally I love what bungie has given us with forgeworld and forge, but custom games seem to have deteriorated (besides the addition of Invasion).
I don't like it when a person complains about game mechanics when they only know as far as polygons count. Seriously, if Bungie had all the blocks using "6 polygons" then you'd still be complaining that the Forge World blocks are more dull than Sandbox's! Where's that post about Forge Hub users being given cake then complaining because it didn't have sprinkles?
I definitely would not be complaining. A 6 sided polygon is a cube, no rounded edge, nothing spectacular. The same box in Reach had: 6 sides, rounded edges (which add up lets say 10 per side), now we are going to take in the itty bitty little depressions they put in where the glass is (assuming they are a rectangular prism (they aren't) they have 5 polygons, 2 on each side) and the glassware that is on the block. 6+80+20=106 polygons- this isn't even taking into account the aesthetic parts of the block. I could make 1 cube look nearly ten times more aesthetic gvin the right parts
What I really don't understand is why they gave us a budget of $10,000 when your map is definitely going to have framerate issues if you have any significant fraction of that visible at once. Wouldn't it have made sense to slash the available budget down to like $7,500 or something so that people wouldn't think they can get really intricate? Whatever. It can be worked around, we just have to make sure to limit lines of sight on forged maps or use less of the budget. And @DMM that sprinkles post was me. I am grateful for Forge World and what can be done with it if a player doesn't rage over framerate issues and the forger plans wisely to limit any issues. I just find it absolutely baffling that Bungie gave us such a huge budget if we can't use it without having problems. It's like they gave us cake with sprinkles, but then the sprinkles turned out to be packing peanuts. Aren't these framerate issues the exact reason Bungie didn't allow Sandbox budget glitch maps and certain weapons into Halo 3 matchmaking? In one game they ban things from matchmaking because they cause framerate issues, and in the next they ship Asylum on the disk, where scoping down the snipe corridor drops you to 10 frames per second. It's like they didn't even test any of this.
Indeed... They've merely made this game as a closure game. They promised us so much more, but that's all it is. Each of their maps are just remakes of other maps (Except the i nvasion ones). Like Ivory tower now has Reflection, Warlock's Asylum, Construct's Countdown, Ascension's Pinnacle, Blood Gulch's Hemorrhage, I've even been told Paradiso is also a remake from a CE map. If you see where I'm getting at? They've literally just designed Reach to just tie off all the loose ends and merge all their games into one. To be honest, I couldnt care less about detail parts. I've prefered Sandbox textures from day 1, because you can merge a block tall into a block double and then merge an arch into the side of the block tall, and have an obelisk on top and it all looks like it's the same piece. You can't merge a block 1x1 to a 1x2 in forge world without having shitty textures all over the pieces. Not to mention the block 3x3 Short, has a face with an invisible barrier on it as they indented the texture on it to make the piece look like it has a bevelled edge. When you want to strap a health station to that, it stands off it by about a foot! As mentioned before, they've added in unneeded aspects to the game at the expense of needed aspects. Like, a massive collection of immovable objects... yet you only get 6 (usable) movable objects. All the immovable objects look unbelievably different so you can't merge them properly yet they designed the new forge around merging objects. You also have no contrast in regards to size from Wall double, to Wall collosium... where the hell does that come from?! All in all, if Reach came out next year, it'd be 10x better, but it's out now so it's tough ****. You just better pray that bungie realise the crucial mistakes they've made and fix them with updates that targets their true fans, not ******'s who play COD 24x7 and now want to join the halo bandwagon for the last game that bungie's gonna produce in the halo series anyway.
I do agree that there are too many polygons/too much texture in the newer peices. I'd rather have lots of walls that are just slabs of concrete than one pretty looking wall. KEEP IT SIMPLE BUNGIE! That's all I want.
I don't agree with you on everything, but there honestly are not enough items... They should've made it like 200 building blocks imo.
I'm afraid I have to agree with you. As much as I love some of the improvements Bungie's made to Forge (ie, rotation snap, nudging, rotation, etc.) the different textures are getting on my nerves. Unlike Sandbox, where everything could be merged into one another to give the semblance of being one object (ie the good old fashioned caves), now it's obvious where each piece ends and begins. The lack of movable objects is also terrible. Dumpsters, pallets, barrels, etc. were the key to many great custom games on Foundry; not to mention being vital for switches and the like. I also miss equipment in that regard, but the armor abilities definitely make for a better multi-player experience. I'm also disappointed by the removal of gametypes like VIP. It's almost as if Bungie was focusing more on the matchmaking aspect than the custom user-created content which is what made Halo so great IMO and lead to its massive lifespan. I know this isn't a fair statement as Bungie have always taken a keen interest in what the community does with Forge and Custom Games, so much so that they revamped it to make it more accessible to others, but by trying to make it more visually appealing and improving it I can't help but feel that Custom Games won't be as good as they were in Halo 3, despite all the amount of customization available. Maybe I'm overreacting, after all Reach has only been out for a few weeks and there's still plenty of time for people to make amazing new minigames and get that community spirit back.
I'm sorry, but you're an idiot if you think that countdown is construct. Just sayin. Along with that, you forgot to mention ALL of the other maps in Reach. Like Sword Base, Powerhouse, Boardwalk, and so many more. Not to mention, most of their remakes are on forge world. If you didn't notice, a lot of the forge world pieces were designed around remakes. It's not like Bungie is giving us a bunch of direct remakes, they're just saving us time by making some of these remakes for us. Plus, there are original forge world maps as well. The cage and Paradiso, for example. This I can agree with. While the sandbox textures were ****, I don't like the forge world ones much more. Well, considering a wall colosseum is ****ing massive, why would it need to look the same as a double wall? They're for completely different purposes. If Reach came out in a year, I'd murder someone. You really would've put up with another year of waiting, to fix a few small problems? I say quit griping and be thankful for you got.
I don't understand much of this stuff, but i have to agree with you, well the parts i understand anyway. I think bungie have gone a bit to detailed and earch object is to easy to spot when merging it into another, it may look smooth but i just hate the textures with it.
I really miss Pallets. They were EXTREMELY useful in Halo 3. Same for Flamethrower. And Firebomb. And those different sized Traxus Boxes. And Spike Grenade. And Brute Shot. And Mauler. And most annoying of all is the low budget on some maps. I wasted Boardwalks budget by spawning: 2 Sprint 2 Shotgun 2 DMR 1 Machine Gun 6 Land Mines 4 Fusion Coils 8 Pallets 1 Kill Ball 4 Traxus Boxes I maybe forgot a few things but my point is: Boardwalk has a very low budget.
Explain to me how countdown ISNT a construct remake? It's just a vast improved remake IMO. They said they were remaking a couple of old favourites like Construct, Warlock and Ivory Tower along with a few others... so where else is this Construct remake? Two purple lifts on Construct, two side air lifts on Countdown. They're both Multiple tiered. They both have a main lift centralised on the map. Both maps have good combination of close quarter and long/medium range combat. They both require top control of the map. It isn't an EXACT remake, it's just their spin on fixing Construct. Indeed they're for different purposes but what can you use a wall collosseum for? Walls, floors and roofs. If you're using it as a roof as well as a floor, and you need the piece to fit an area larger than one, but smaller than two and there can't be any overhang... You're still forced to use two, but you have a massive glitching overlap. If you don't want the massive glitching overlap, you get an overhang. If you don't want either, you have to use 40 wall doubles to cover the same area... See what i'm getting at now? You're clearly posting on the wrong thread to say quit griping, and i'd happily wait for a game to be produced properly than have a game come out half finished. Good games (COD etc...) get released unfinished, and people hack them, exploit them, ruin them. Amazing games (H3), take longer to produce, come out, and remain amazing for their entire lifespan.
Generally I agree with the cake and sprinkles analogy, but I have no choice to admit you've got some valid points. (Aside from your first gripe, which would be solvable by either watching where you're going for by smoother forging on a custom map). Personally, I don't mind the high polygon count. I hated the drab look of sandbox. Its nice to have some pretty pieces. I do, however, agree that a reduced count would be better for larger maps. I haven't experienced forge lag, but I could definitely see it being an issue, especially when z-fighting rears its ugly and frustrating head. However, I think there is a fine variety. You have bridges, ramps, blocks, platforms, walls, windows of multiple shapes and sizes. Seriously, there are dozens of different building blocks to use. Its certainly a step up from 'double walls everywhere!!!' Budget system does have its issues, but I don't have the technical knowledge to speak to that. Scenery is interesting. I know the options are limited, but we have a much prettier canvas to work off of now. Bungie addressed the pallet complaint on the forums a while back, and I'm willing to accept their defense. Scenery is also very expensive. A camping stool costs $25. A magnum? $10.
Does anyone get the impression with Forge and Reach as a whole if im honest that it is half finished? Who knows what Bungie has planned for the coming updates! I do have to admit though, I am getting sick of building all the structures on my maps in either; A) Forerunner B) Natural One concern I do have is that, If your like me and you want your buildings to look awesome, ensuring that every little angle looks 'just right' I have found the budget quite restricting. For example in my latest piece of work I have spent half of the budget building a central piece (a 2 storey bridge) the problem now is that I have little to spare on the Team bases and have had to narrow my desired scope dramatically.
The problem isn't that Forge World should have had a bigger budget or should have looked better (though those would be nice). The problem is that using the budget allotted causes problems unless you drastically reduce lines of sight. We should be grateful for what we've got, but everybody should be asking Bungie WTF when stuff even as basic as Asylum has framerate lag.