The problem is judgement. Its really easy to look over a video a few times and claim someone is a bloodthirsty, murderous American cowboy. Its another to be in a situation where anyone at anytime could kill you or your comrades. Yes, innocents are killed after being mistaken for an insurgent all the time. But insurgents mistaken for innocents kill just as many people. I can definitely see why they fired upon the first group. Crouching and peering around a corner with a nondescript, cold object in your hands when some sort of threat has clearly already been perceived by the gunner is a somewhat foolish move. As for the second scenario, it is of course difficult to justify. I would assume he did not see the children in it. Most of the videos on youtube highlight the children's heads. This is exactly because they are not obvious. They would be even less obvious to a soldier focusing on a perceived threat, ie the men outside of the van rather than the two obscured children inside. I definitely agree that this was a lapse in judgement, but it is easier to judge someone than to understand them. Its hard to say. Generally Apache's circle a pretty good distance from the actual spot. Watching over it again, note the time lapse between when you hear the shots being fired and when they start kicking up smoke. That's a pretty good distance, IMO. Again, not entirely sure, but I believe it was already zoomed in, and the black/white scheme is used because the increased contrast usually helps target acquisition. I know, I know, it didn't help this time.
I think this is just all a tragic accident. Both parties were at fault, and it's tragic that it ended in deaths. It's not like US troops would actually like to kill civilians/innocents, if that is what they truly intended. And, if Reuters is a news company, how come they didn't inform the US troops in the area that a couple journalists were moving into town and taking pictures or wore the required clothing/markings that identify them as journalists? Looking back on it, this might have been a good requirement to follow. Especially with a few armed guards accompanying them and especially in a zone where there were recent engagements.
Orange makes a good point. Reuters should've done that, or at least directed them through a different area, where there hadn't been recent engagements. I do not see why the chopper crew fired on the second group. They were picking up bodies, so why would they shoot? War isn't anymore, it's now just 'Get into cover before the Apache kills you'.
Now I think that war is more like "Start a fight and kill a bunch of innocent people to prove that my method of living morally righteous, then run and hide before the Apache kills me."
youtube response: I somewhat agree, before you jump to conclutions and judge me Think about how many civilians died in terroist attacks. Which I might add were no intention of fighting a war, however in this video people become a victom of war and i'm sure thousands over have and will. None the less it doesn't give the right to shoot anyone as you please, if that was the case why not just drop an atom bomb, ending the war right here, right now. Like mentioned before, what happened to training? his accuracy was shocking to say the least. Well then again, if they did pose as a threat.It sure cleared the area.
Orange makes a terrible point. Reuters would never want to ruin an opportunity to catch the military with its pants down. I'm sure the photographers felt the same way, sadly they became apart of an awful military screw-up. Driscoll, yes 9/11 is still tragic, but when can we drop the temporary insanity plea and own up to our actions. 9/11 was the result of extremists, not an entire nation. They never deserved an occupying force and now everyone has to pay.
I would point out that he is using a gun from a distance that allows for one to three seconds delay between firing and impact. From a moving helicopter. The 30mm cannon on most Apaches is a kind of chain gun. After accounting for variables such as wind speed and the movements of both gunners and targets, I think the average untrained individual would be lucky to hit close enough for people to notice it even shooting at them. When one becomes a war photographer, they are inherently accepting the risks associated with it. It is like becoming a firefighter and not expecting to get burned. They go out there for the big scoop, and to expose America for the white devil we are. You are saying that despite them failing to let the military know they would be in the area with large amounts of equipment (that the average Iraqi civilian doesn't have), that the military should have expected it? Do you realize how counter-intuitive that is? War is, was, and always will be a natural part of the human condition. As long as there is war, innocents will die. Sure, we're there for oil. But we as a country need it. I see you here, on ForgeHub. You are using electricity. You are consuming natural resources and power and energy, part of which is fueled by the very oil you complain about. At least this war is over a resource. Perhaps you should go over there and throw your bleeding-heart opinions at the Middle-Easterners dying over religion. Or go into Africa and South America and point out the errors of their judgement in fighting each other for power.
This whole thing stinks. The soldiers only reacted because they thought the camera guy had an RPG on him. I mean when you see this: ...in a hot territory that is Baghdad, I'm sure you're inclined to believe that it is a man with an RPG in his hands, which leaves you in a position where it's only one of you that walks away from the area. What I got from this video is that **** happens. It's not like the camera crew were signaling the helicopter for help or anything (not that they needed help). There were very little indications that they were a part of a news crew, and as time grew on what appeared to be a small gathering of people initially grew and looked like insurgents. This doesn't prove our military are cold blooded killers with no souls, this only proves that our military reacts quickly and doesn't take anything for granted.
If the rounds took 3 seconds to make it there, it's travelling like 1000 ms^-1. Do you really think 1 rpg would pose any threat? They should have just left immediately.
I don't really get what you're trying to say at first. Is it leading up to saying an RPG poses no threat at that distance? It only takes one. One hell of a shot with an RPG, one lucky bullet to the rotor. I can understand why someone would be carrying a gun in Iraq. But an RPG? Even if the Apache was too far away for it to be considered a threat, America has nearly total air and vehicular dominance. People don't carry RPGs for self-defense. They carry them to take down armored targets, such as American tanks, APCs, and helicopters. There is no innocent reason to carry an RPG in the middle of a war. 'They should have just left immediately.' Would you be in favor of a total and absolute drawback from Iraq? If we were to take this video as a microcosm of the whole situation there, we would realize yes, innocent people die. This is war. A rather one-sided one, yes. But it is war. Innocents die in war. They always have. With the advent of the Information Age, people are just now realizing it. That's why 'Nam was such a disaster. The people back home could actually see what was going on. If America pulls out now, the country would devolve into chaos. We have destabilized everything over there. To leave before order gets back on its feet would be a worse decision than going over there in the first place. I just don't understand why people think this is anything new, that this is proof that America sucks and our troops are murderers. If anything, I think that they've done a damn good job keeping disasters to a minimum. We've come a far way from using Rainbow Herbicides and atomic bombs. Instead of hundreds of thousands of collateral deaths, we have a few thousand.
There's no way in hell Iraq will become a stable democracy in our lifetime. The only other nation that we have occupied, in recent memory, that became a democracy is Japan. But, at the time of the war Japan had many democratic and capitalistic characteristics. Japan was going to become a democracy whether or not we occupied them, we probably did expedite the process, but our occupation shouldn't be considered the primary factor for the nation of Japan today. Iraq now, is still basically at the tribal stage. They need time to get over that. An occupying force trying to force democracy isn't very democratic at all. With the fear of death, how can that nation ever hope to become a democracy? Leaving now would save lives. Staying is not the right thing to do. Terrorists deserve punishment, but occupying nations isn't exactly eye for eye. Now, all we're doing is creating a situation where more people are likely to become terrorists and losing support from friendly nations.
Dear Rusty, You are absolutely right. You see with eyes unclouded. It is a shame our politicians, our military leaders, and our troops cannot see the truth as you can, having acquired the wisdom of a prophet in your nineteen years upon this earth. Truly, the righteousness and the clarity of your judgement is awe-inspiring. I must contact everyone from the Supreme Court to the Dalai Lama so that they may bow at your feet and learn of how you came to be so wise and knowing. Your wisdom, your ability to see from all sides even from an ocean away, completely crushes me and my desire to continue this foolish charade. To argue with you any longer, to have any chance of surviving against your words would require that I resort to underhanded debate tactics, such as ignoring any good point in your post, quoting and replying to your truth with self-righteous opinions stated as if they were fact. To use such terrible means in order to selfishly assert my dominance would be noticed by those of power in this fine forum, and I would be banished, and you would be unscathed, protected by your armor of truth and your shield of tenure. So with that, I yield to your infallible logic and intelligence, and humbly bow out of this thread. I only hope that you do not turn your wrathful eye upon any other posts of mine, lest the flaws in them be exposed. -Ursus the Grim, vanquished fool.
I knew civilians were being killed, but I didn't think it was done in such a direct manner. Also, I found this pretty interesting.
I agree with your point but forums aren't for the educated so you have no right to call him out on his ignorance. Which, might I point out, you also retain. So please refrain from being condescending. As to what I took from the video is that the video points to the two reporters and says LOOK! They have cameras! What's also is obvious is that the other people, which the video neglects to mention also have gun-looking things, and to my knowledge very well were guns. It's terrible that it happened but the blame should not be placed on the soldiers but on the original people who started the war, bella, Horrida bella.
Are you guys seriously incriminating these soldiers? So they made a mistake. It happens, sure this time it was human lives, but it wasn't their fault. Their actions were justified by a situation that seemed present. You all think that you could have handled it better. Go ahead, join the military, you go fight. Then don't come crying back to the United States when 12 fellow soldiers die because you didn't shoot suspected terrorists holding an object looking like an RPG. They couldn't win. If those had been terrorists and they had left. How would they have felt if fellow American soldiers died because of it. War sucks, stuff like this happens. But don't get all pissy over the soldiers. They are doing the dirty work to keep you safe while you enjoy playing on your xbox and complaining on the internet. You incriminate them for their humor? Have you ever heard of doctors using dark humor? It is how you get through jobs that involve death. You can't blame them. Try watching as many humans die as they have and try to remain stable without using dark humor.
Are you seriously pardoning these soldiers? They made a mistake. That's an odd invitation, seeing as how most people who believe serious problems are exposed in the video ALSO don't think America should still be occupying Iraq in any more than an advisory capacity.
I personallly believe we need to stay in Iraq for a while longer. We left Afganistan 20 years ago after driving the Russians out, so to thank us they came over here and brought 9/11. Now we are the occupying force but with 2 major differences. 1. We have the support of most of the populace there, despite what the media tells us. I know a woman from Iraq and she believes us to be heroes. 2. Once again despite what the media may lead us to believe weapons greda yellow cake uranium has been found in warehouses. The insurgents have proven time and time again that they can bury in the sand most of what they would need to take over again once we leave. (Urban Legends Reference Pages: (Sand Trap)) So now I ask you, if around 20 TONS of weapons grade uranium wasn't important enough to get out of that warehouse what did they bury out in the sand. Supposedly we are idiots for believing that they had a nuclear weapons program. From the evidence that most media has not reported I think they probably do, and I would rather we catch or kill all of the insurgents who know the locations of whatver they have before we leave, if not we could regret it. We view ourselves as monsters and devils for what we have done thanks to a few reasons. The media has lead us to believe that we a despised for our actions, and the accidents like the one in this thread have strained our faith in our own country. I have been to South Africa and England and Germany and I know that we are the best country on the face of the planet, the fact we can have such a lack of perspective to other countries views proves this. (The super bowl champions are declared champions of the world despite not facing anyone from out side the United States.) The amount of control the media (and I am going to specifically point out liberals in media) has over our opinions is further proof. Despite how we view ourselves today we will be seen for what we are in the future. Either we will be heroes for liberating a country, or we could be fools for leaving to soon and leaving them worse off than before. We could even potentially get ourselves nuked for our actions.
Do you have any clothes? Because I need them. I will take them if necessary. Is this sarcasm? I think it is. Right?