"I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them. " Resonse: See theres a problem with this is that we are not created with the "intention that we would know him" because adults teach children hes real {like any other character santa ect...} and its not the childs knowledge at birth its just old knowledge passed down and it doesnt mean its right. Evidence all around us? WHAT EVIDENCE? lol God activley pursuse us oh you mean how he or it has never ever made proven contact with a living creditable source that we can all look at as unrefutable and say "hey its god". At least Satan has a form for crying out loud what is god? If anything god would be a moment in time not a being which should be praised. Religious folowers are basicaly just praying to something that has past and which has noconscience because its an event not a being. God =/= thing ,person,being,entity, but an event. What bothers me is that you are folowing and living according to something as minute as a second in time which if you think about it is pointless. Man needed a reason to answer questions in the begining of time when there was no understanding and thats when some guy made answers. This man/woman was the first human leader he gained power over others with knowledge and answers because everyone know you do not follow a leader who does not have an answer. The answer he made was god or some form of superior life that created them . This individual used this to get power one things humans need to be sucessful as a species. Answers have been the main reason people follow or belive its so they can get answers they dont know or can get on their own not because its the truth. Truth is that we need answers and will fill in gaps with fabricated information if the gaps lead us to confusion. So god = fabrication and mis understanding of the world around us used to explain the unexplainable.
Nobody ever said it was, and no, it is not inherited knowledge, that's called instinct, yet still, nobody ever said it was. I'm not seeing the point. Also, you're comparing God to Santa, I still have yet to come up with a better way to prove yourself ignorant. Evidence and proof are two different things. You're mixing them up. I'm evidence of him. The fact that I say he exists suffices for evidence's definition. What you're thinking of is proof. In the link, I'm referring to "a sign". No, that's not what he/she meant, I wasn't the guy who said the quote. Still, your sarcasm is misplaced. God pursues us, showing his existence in ways personal to the soul through logic all the willing will see blatantly. Open your mind for a minute will you? At "at least Satan.." you were discredited, but I read on anyway. "has a form" as in a form of dance? A physical form? I don't know his personal life, but I'm almost positive he doesn't have the first, but I have no reason to doubt the second. So what if he does though? "...what is God?" God is God. Duh. He's God, you can't say "Oh! God is an antelope!" because if he was, who created the antelope? God is God. He's his own type of being. He would have to be, or else who would have made him? It would go on forever, unless he somehow was all at once, him taking up all the space in existence and knowing every thought that exists and the infinite list that doesn't, as well as knowing every bit of information applying to real things and the non existent. I though I was supposed to be the one who couldn't support his claims...(according to you) I'd like to hear the back up for this. Yeh..um, good luck with that, you know, since you have no backup, evidence or even a sign this is true. You know what I say that? I say prove it. "How deep in your ass did you have to reach to pull out" this bs? (Sorry, Diablo, for stealing you insult, but it applied)
I don't have a lot of time so I'll just give the short answer. No, happy isn't the same as love. Happy is an emotion. Love is also an emotion but it is usually directed at something with certain actions and feelings that are displayed when you love. As in you can say "I love you."(directed at the object "you") but you cannot say "I happy you."(doesn't make sense)
I don't understand how you guys can be so sure that this "evidence" points towards your god. I mean, it's not like you find a note that says, "Hey bro, thought I'd do your laundry for you today. Love, God." It's interpretation. You have to interpret who or what these so called "miracles" are from. One might see a car crash survivor story as a miracle from God, and another might see it as a miracle by....Buddha. I don't know.
As a new rule to myself I'm not going to let my pride get in the way of the debate, therefore I will not respond to any arguments that do not pertain to the argument we are supposed to be debating. If you feel that this is unfair and you want me to respond to the other points, then please bring them up in a private message. But as one last goodbye to my old ways of debating I'm going to select the high points and rebut them in one swift answer. All the above arguments (seperated by a space) can literally be responded to with one of three predetermined responses. (1) LOL, (2) What are you talking about? and (3) Were you paying attention? The sad thing is those are all applicable and they can easily rebuke all your points simply because you have an inability to focus. Seriously. Let's take a poll in this thread to see who Christians think understands the other side's argument more. You or me? No atheists, only Christians who are observing should respond. I honestly don't see how you could receive a single vote in that poll. If you haven't bastardized my argument you've blatantly replaced it with one that you thought up yourself and decided was my point. You are by far the worst debater I've ever faced. It's not so much that you're wrong, its that you don't read and comprehend. You just respond without thinking, as if you are doing this thread justice in the process and as if you are somehow glorifying god in some strange way. --- Begin. NEITHER ARGUMENT REQUIRES CHOICE!!! I didn't mix up my arguments or your responses because your response don't align with my arguments. How is it that god's lack of the destruction of evil is a matter of human choice?! If you would simply pay attention we wouldn't be doing this! One debates the qualities of god and whether or not he deserves our time and belief in him. The other debates the infallibility of the bible which is directly related to the existence of the Christian god. The 'magical pony' is not god and he doesn't exist. God can be equated to a magical pony, in the same way Zeus and Thor can be related to magical ponies. They simply don't exist, in my worldview, and therefore have no more weight than a magical pony. My response didn't mirror your post because your post didn't need a response as it was. There was no meaningful debate to be had. The reason I responded the way I did was to re-clarify my position so that you could respond with, at least, some sense of what's going on. So punishment is equal no matter how many sins or how great? OK...then why did you "mercilessly" assault my 'murder/speeding ticket' analogy? If you get a speeding ticket for speeding, by your logic (or god's at the very least), murder should receive a speeding ticket as well. And multiple murders should receive only one speeding ticket. That just doesn't fly with me. Holy justice might as well be corrupt from my standpoint. It justifies that I have the ability to murder. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't make it noble and it doesn't mean I should but it does justify the fact that I have the ability to murder and to judge god. Just as I have the ability to pray and worship, I have the ability to murder and steal. Now both sets of actions can be performed and it justifies that I have the ability to perform those actions, however, just because I have justification doesn't mean I should or shouldn't. For instance, if god exists, I should pray and worship. They are on the same grounds in terms of the capacity to murder or steal but it doesn't mean that they are of equal morality. In the same way, questioning or judging god should not be automatically deemed to be evil and on the same level as murder. Now, all the above text is just a long drawn out response with reasons why questioning god is not the same as murder. To shorten and simple the point you can look to the following two quotes and understand the premise of what I'm explaining above. "You were also given the ability to MURDER, does that justify it?" "You were also given the ability to PRAY, does that justify it?" No but my mother isn't god and cleaning my room isn't the destruction of evil. I've unfortunately put myself in a position to read your posts and I do faithfully. -- Argument: Me Response: You That doesn't even remotely answer my proposed argument. It's like you started to but dropped off. You are so close, though. If temptation is removed in heaven, then you will not have the ability to choose to be evil because you will not be tempted to do so. So, if a change in vocabulary helps, why doesn't he remove temptation. That doesn't automatically mean you will be a lover of Jesus. You can blame other gods for the absence of evil or you could even just think the world was dandy on its own without god. You still have a choice to choose or not choose god. For god to say, "Please choose me with your free will" and then allow us to be tortured and murdered for some sick desire to be loved by choice (or to even be loved at all) is just absurd. I'm willing to drop all of that if you are willing to just do me the honor of responding honestly to this next question: If there was no murder, in the world, would that still present us with a choice to choose god or to no choose god?
No, really it did. You said "how would the abolition of evil be?" asking how it is NOT a negation of free will. The abolition of evil, in the religion you are criticizing and I am defending, is the end of the world. Pretty straight, that is. Sending every person to their eternal destiny of choice. (Heaven/Hell) THAT is what I responded to. Yeh, he could just remove temptation, but who says we want that? The majority of people don't heck, the majority of people don' even acknowledge him twice a week, what makes you think they're going to ask for it from someone they either... 1. Ignore 2. Don't believe in 3. Don't care about. and sometimes.... 4. Hate Also, what they are asking for is forgiveness. God set down specific rules for his creations (us) and we broke them, each and every one of us. So, still loving us, he sacrificed his own son (you know the story) so we could be forgiven. Like I said before, Loving God is good, any of the below = bad. So we could remove temptation, but that also remove all of choices 1-4. "Allow" us? Hey, we jacked up the earth ourselves, and like I said, that's not his problem. However, he still cares, and has promised comfort and an eternity without any of it to any who want it. It isn't his desire to have us feel pain. Remove murder? Keeping all the other sins? Well, yeh he could do that, it'd be pointless but sure. I doubt that is what you meant though. If you mean removing temptation and sin, refer to my first response up there^^. Because as I said before, sin includes choices 1-4.
I did the same thing that the guy the created the Bible did I smoked some drugs and wrote anything that came to my mind to teach lessons that will be misinterpreted and misused . Religion is simply the blind leading the blind . You follow a concept that you have never proven or shown to be correct and think its ok. You probably belittle others that don't believe and think they are wrong but are we lol? If I raise a child and never teach them about God and ask them to belive in something they can't see,touch, talk to, taste , /any other sense of concept they will look at me and probably laugh. God does not exist with out it being taught to the youth who will believe anything you tell them.
Ok, I asked "how would the abolition of evil be a negation of free will". Your exact response was: "The abolition of evil...is the end of the world. Pretty straight, that is. Sending every person to their eternal destiny of choice..." So I'm asking, if god had never allowed evil, would that be a negation of free will. Does that clear it up at all? Because your responses are way off base. It's not about us wanting him to remove temptation. It would be about him wanting to remove temptation. There is not "waiting" period. Either you allow it or you don't and since he does allow it it is malevolence. He is a malevolent god. I didn't get kicked out of the garden. I got stuck with the sin I didn't even commit. I was born guilty. You obviously didn't read my blog which I will redirect you to again. Would that be a negation of free will if he did?
You must have a very low self-esteem and be very conceited to think that humans screwed up the world in like what 30,000 years vs the whatever it was before that. Also it's technically impossible for us to mess up nature. Nature is just a constantly fluctuating process with set parameters. We would have to mess with he laws of physics to actually cause damage. So you're basically saying that the digestion process of a human changed the laws of physics? You mean this youth? "97% of teens don't have Jesus in their lives." - your sig I vote Prosper, since he doesn't have an argument, there is no way for you to understand it. And sometimes I wonder if he even understands what he's saying, so how are you supposed to? and for the lolz
Well, yes that was my response, but your query you stated above was answered by me, then you said it didn't make sense, and the lower paragraph in your quote up there is my clarification. It went like this: You: (OP) Me: (Response One) You: (Response Two) Me: (Response Three) Further explaining that, after you asked: I said: There! Now all the confusion is gone. =) Yes. Not in all respects, but in the main one, because we would no longer be able to choose not to love God, or disobey his rules. (Robots) Rule numero uno: "I am the Lord your God." Since that is one of the rules, if evil were gone, nobody would be able to deny that. Where do you get the pride to say so? Say you were God, you created some peoples and gave them the choice of yourself and endless paradise and joy or their own temporary, evil pleasures accompanied the punishment that earns. They chose evil. Why should you care? Well, you don't have to, you gave 'em a world, they jacked it up, big whoop. But no, you loved them, so you sent your son down as a sacrifice so all who desire to redeem themselves may, and yet still most of your creations hate your immaterial guts. You're feeling kind of sad now, for your own creations to burn in hell, but hey, you warned 'em, they knew what they were doing. STILL you love them enough to fix their mess. Yet, this is a temporary world; it isn't as important as where your creation will spend their eternity, so you give that preference. You let everyone take their time and choose you, or hell. Once everyone has made their decision, collect the ballots. (End the world) Send everyone to their eternal destiny of choice, and be done with it. Now you live happily ever after (literally) with the people who love you. THAT is how is works. More or less. I believe in the age of accountability, so that logic doesn't reach me. What is the age of accountability? It is a belief that all who are incapable of making their choice for or against God are saved, or if they never got a chance at all. For a full explanation, click me. No, I did read it. I agree with you, wit the exception of your conclusion. Adam and Eve DID have a slight knowledge of Evil, but you can think about things that don't exist, like laser guns and Darth Vader. It doesn't mean God created Evil. Satan was the first author of it with his pride. He was God's right-hand-man and got so full of himself he thought HE should be God. He caused the war in Heaven, took a third of the angels out of Heaven with him, they became demons (which are actually just fallen Angels) and you know the story. So yes, they did know a little evil. However, they were innocent, not knowing shame or modesty or anything else (they were naked, so lack of that was a little essential). Still, they chose to disobey. It was their choice. God didn't do it through them, only they are responsible for it. In a way, (murder) but all of the other sins are still out there (torture, hate, etc.) so it'd make a difference, a huge one, but it wouldn't take away from the evil in other forms. ================================================================= At Eyeless sid, you are so full of ignorant bs I pity you, at least Nitrous knows he's talking about most of the time, sometimes even Rabid can catch on. You say.... "You live in fear of punishment and death" No, I don't, I'm not sure where you getting your info but it's wrong. Muslims may live in fear of punishment, seeing as their heaven requires them to earn it, Christians acknowledge that is impossible, and thank God for his Grace, and the paradise he promised. "I live my life for myself and no one else." That's kind of selfish, actually, it reminds me of an Einstein quote: " you can't explain something you follow blindly" You still haven't given any reason not to think the same of you. You also said: No, I don't blame Satan for anything. I say "thank you God" for all that happens, good or bad, because no matter how horrible it is, I know I deserve worse. Once again you prove your own ignorance! Good Job! "big bang = god in my opinion." Your OPINION. Earlier you were correcting me like somebody from the funny farm, and it was all based on your OPINION?! I've lost any respect I still had for you, most of it was gone when you said you lived your life for yourself.
Why would you even think that? So if you got mugged, you would laugh and go, "yeah, I had that coming"? And then thank God for the experience of course.
You gave my girlfriend a good laugh, so uh, thanks for that. Anyway, no, I wouldn't thank God for the experience, I'd thank him that I'm still alive and able to remember I got mugged, basically that it could have been worse, and was better than what I deserve.
Because I've disobeyed rules, a lot of them, rules told by my own creator, I've disobeyed God. Just like the rest of us, but it doesn't make it any better, how many people did it. I've lied, I've stolen, no matter how small, it's still a sin.
Well according to Christianity, aren't we designed already flawed? So you're just doing what comes natural. You can't beat yourself up over that.
Its not as influencial in todays youth as it was in the past because its been outdated and most have come to the realization of that. The youth I was reffering to is that which is aging and or is no longer the youth the last generation failed to pass on the ignorance that is religion down and thats not a horrible thing. People have started looking at the whole thing the big picture and have realized wow this shits retarded. @ Prosper you call me ignorant after I prove you to be just that a stupid follower with little free will or thought. Yeah you say you don't have fears but yet you probably pray to god for answers, answers you don't bother looking for normaly or logicaly and exspect "god" to answer them. You fear the unknown where I look for it I like solving things, asking question and, finding solutions your solution is "god" and god is an easy lazy answer for things that have real answers.
You haven't proven anything, all you've done is call me stupid without even an analogy to back you up. Honestly, you don't deserve response to anything you write after this, but hey, it might grant me a good laugh =). My prayers are my own business, but I don't fear death. Also, what you think I do and what I do are different, thanks to your judgmental stereotyped anti-religious hatred you show so blatantly. Once again, you assume things about me. You're wrong; again. You say this, and yet you are too closed minded to even study the religions you insult before insulting them. So far all you've done is insult people and declare yourself right by your own authority, I haven't read any questions from you. Solution? Solution to what? This is your opinion. It belongs in off-topic. This is a DEBATE forum, not a "hey everybody your morons bow down to me" forum. Stop with the hateful spam and have an intelligent conversation or leave. Since you are giving your opinion, I'm going to give my own: You were born into a family that hates religion and they taught you to hate it too, you've never seen a Bible, Torah etc. open, but since your parents told you that it was all lies, you trust them and have no need to listen to us; your mind is already closed and narrow toward hating religion, and you come here to vent because no one gives you the time of day anywhere else. THAT is the impression you are giving. So please, start debating, or start leaving.
Your god is as real as any imaginary being that the human mind has created for one reason or another. Plus Christianity is just a ripped off religion of older ones your idea of god is in a way a cheap ripp off. copy and paste: Your counter arguments are jokes "well you can't disprove it" "well you haven't shown me otherwise" is backpeddling bullshit. You never have given evidence to god so as Ive said before hwo about show me something divine because my evidence that you cant see him , communicate or sense him in any way since hes a thought not a thing unless you consider an event god. You don't know what your god is and you follow him thats blind following . I look for answers that I can concept and explain instead of being lazy and say "its gods work". So I guess im a blind searcher? lol Sure call me selfish but think for a second if theres no god yes I said it but just think of it, and you waste your whole life in restriction and rules which limit your potential happiness . Am I selfish for wanting to live for my happiness and not for a corrupt religions will? I rather be happy than a simple pon blindly following some faceless concept like you are doing prosper :] PS how about you dig up some real responses instead of regurgitating some random quotes you interpret in the wrong context. How about you use your head to actually type some well thought out arguments or points that you don't base off opinions [that means it has tangible evidence in them]. Maybe thats asking too much of a brainless fool.