This is a classic blame the victim mentality. Society is persecuting a minority? Well clearly the minority is the one who needs to change and better acclimate into the cultural hegemony. And "we can work to change cultural prejudices but the actions available to us must be dictated by cultural prejudice" is really circular and does nothing but reinforce the status quo. Forbidding a church to marry a gay couple is disrespectful to religion. Imposing intolerance on a church or entire religion is disrespectful to religion. If you limit the amount a freedom a church has... you might be disrespecting region. When 51% of the population votes to kill off the other 49% I want you to be the first one to willingly walk into a volcano. I, too, use an arbitrary set of standards to validate my misplaced sense of moral fortitude. Beyond the obvious equal rights issue (that you don't think is important?) gay marriage deals with a host of base ideas and attitudes. Discrimination, intolerance and empathy are all touched on by this one single issue. And stuff like empathy translates over into other areas of debate, such as health care or foreign policy. Convincingly arguing one prominent issue has the potential to open up a floodgate of correct opinions. Perhaps if homosexuals weren't actively persecuted by both society and government there wouldn't be any reason why a gay man would force himself into a loveless heterosexual marriage. Can you deny that the societal condemnation of an action or group of people plays some role in forging the deviant culture that surrounds them or it? C'mon, man. Grow up and be an adult. Don't shut down like this. Talk to people. Listen to people. Be mature. If necessary, be the better person.
Im being mature, I just wont tolerate someone telling me such terrible things like what he said. I am a Christian, and he kept talking about sucking... you know, and thats the most immature, disturbing thing anyone has said to me on Forgehub. I dont disrespect anyone, no matter their religion. On to the topic, I just believe that Gay marriage is wrong. It has been looked down upon and been known as immoral since humans were created. It just wasnt meant to be. Now, yes, I am taught that through my religion, but that doesnt give you the right to say things like that. Also, I wasnt always a Christian. My parents did not teach me to be one, I picked it up myself and guess what, I thought Homosexuality was wrong before too. I just dont get how all of a sudden, gay sex is a good thing in the eyes of the nation. I truly cant believe how far away we have gone from the morals that humanity has had for so long. Now, thats my opinion on the debate at hand, from a mature grown up. Take it or leave it.
Your a homophobic lol. They just are different I don't care what people choose to do in their lives as long as it doesn't effect others in bad or negative ways. Seems Christianity is more of a nusance than homosexuality now a days. You just think its wrong but the fact is they aren't hurting anyone so its fine. People kill homosexuals and persicuit them just because they choose to love the same sex and I don't see why. People kill in the name of "god" and for religious dominance and I also don't understand it. People can't just get allong and its quite sad. "immoral since humans were created" ? Really humans have been around longer than the oldest religion meaning we created religion not the other way around don't be confused. <this is fact and I can show you bones of early humans which pre-date any religion and deffinatley the fairy tale some call "Adam and Eve" which believes incest is a good thing . Incest is disgusting not homosexuality. Morals have stayed the same since our beginnings we are animals and live accordingly. We are NOT special and we have survived to today because we have adapted to the new world and not been stuck in the past with false ideals and beliefs. Your religion was created to explain what was unexplainable ,things we CAN explain today. It was created to comfort peoples fear of death and loss of loved ones. It was created to unite people and yes give moral standards. We have out live the bible's teachings and it is outdated now we can easily make our own choices about what is morally correct or wrong. We don't need a stuck up old authors stories to judge and guide our lives. Saying homosexuality is "wrong" is being a judge in what you have no say in. You don't agree with me fine prove me wrong then with sources facts and reasoning , not with "faith" based answers which prove absolutely nothing but that you are unwilling to let go of what you know and belive and actualy use your head. Look around and think for yourself ,following rules that are no longer fitting this age is stupid . If you live in the past then you will be left there I choose to move ahead into the unknown and actualy try new things and see what answers lie there for me to find. Being close minded is the real problem I find with this type of argument. Oldest religions go back 60,000 years and it wasnt Christainity :O! http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_oldest_known_religion_in_the_world Oldest human remains= 3.8 to 4 million years old http://www.selamta.net/Lucy.htm Do the math!
some of you guys are ridiculous. I am christian, not some terrorist muslim. Nobody kills in the name of God. If they say they do, they are not a Christian. I dont want this to be a religious debate, I just point out that my religion teaches it. Honestly, I cant tell anyone what to do. God gave everyone free will with their own decisions to be right or wrong (what you might call a consciance, Spelled right? lol). What people do is up to them. I dont hate anybody for their choice. My wifes brother is gay and I talk to him alot. I just believe its wrong. I dont have to prove my religion in this forum to you sid. You cant argue that a man having anal sex rips his anus causing cancer and/or hemeroids in the long run. Funny as that sounds, it cant be good. Now, sex with a women on the other hand, wont cause cancer in the ******, maybe ripping if they arent careful. Its a human battery. Positive goes to negative, and thats the only way it works. Your little religion links and old human remains has nothing to do with homosexuality. Plus, yeah Christianity isnt the oldest, cause Christ didnt come until 2ooo yrs ago. Before that it was God in control rather you believe it or not. Also, I disagree with Homosexuality, but I dont hate them, hurt them or go gay bashing so I am not Homophobic.
Response in Blue Im not trying to be a ****, I can't put emotion into typing so it seems like it lol. My main point : homosexuals are no more wrong than any other lifestyle choice. A "god" is not a reason to think someone is wrong.
Homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice, I'm surprised this isn't common sense by now. No matter if there isn't research to clearly identify whether it is choice or genetic, there is research to support the theory that it is genetic and no (or little) credible information supporting the theory that it is choice.
I, being Christian, Agree 95% of what you said. Norlinsky is cool Anymay, my only defense against why their shouldn't be gay marriage is because God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. Not much more to say about it really.
Well that's certainly not offensive to those of the Muslim faith. But I suppose it's warranted seeing as there are 'absolutely' no Christian terrorists. Yes, they do. Is that *aboot* right? No you don't, but if "God says so" is your only evidence against homosexuality, then find new evidence. Anal sex increases the likelihood of haemorrhoids, not cancer. So yes, I can argue with your completely unreferenced *facts*, not that it would make a difference. How exactly is "anal sex causes haemorrhoids" an argument? So you'd just discriminate against them, and see their worth as less than that of a "normal person*, right?
What is even the point if this thread? It's just ignorant Christians arguing with everyone else. And it will never change.
Zombievillan, I appreciate you coming back but let me be frank; it's amazing that you can become so defensive when your religion is insulted, and that you lack the self reflection to see how your feelings parallel what homosexuals are currently experiencing. Really, look at how defensive you became when your beliefs were attacked. As insulting as those attacks were they ultimately amounted to little more than impotent rage. Attacks against homosexuals though, even simple verbal jabs, carry with them serious weight because of the institutional and cultural homophobia embedded within our society. If someone shits all over you and your religion you can just shrug it off because you know that nothing will come of it, but the negative opinions people carry regarding homosexuals have actual consequences. Those people and their opinions can walk into a voting booth and strip you of your rights. Their insults carry with them the very real threat of violence. The judgments they make of you aren't just the ravings of one single asshole but a reflection of the opinions of potential employers, lost friends, angry family members-- an entire culture hostile to you and your way of living. You can't just shrug off those insults, because you know that this country cultivates and endorses those opinions, you are living those opinions. And as long as these people keep thinking the way they do, and convincing others to think the way they do, and convincing people not to care about you or your cause, they will maintain their control over you. That is the power of their insults. In the end, homosexuals are fighting a social structure that frames the way people think so that nobody questions social roles because "common sense" assertions make it seem as though there isn't any other way and there never could be. Look back at your posts and you'll see that the majority of your points invoke "obvious common sense" in some form or another. Try to empathize with homosexuals and not get caught up in this culturally indoctrinated pitfall. Raging on a debate forum against posting arguments on the internet is a classically retarded thing to do.
responses in red. @ Sid, I dont care how many people killed someone "in the name of God". Cults?, c'mon. Cults are not Christian. Like David Koresh, the Davidian guy. He thought he was the Messiah and such, went crazy with his cult and burned 75 people to death. That is not in the name of God, the dude was crazy and thought it was. @ Battyman, thanks for being cool about it. Like I said though, I dont mean to be offensive to gays or anyone else. I just stated my thoughts on the subject and I am taking quite a few blows from people in this forum that are offensive. Now how is offending gays worse than offending Christians. You cant just blow that off. I take the low blows and move on, that doesnt make it right. I appologize to anyone I offended in this thread or anywhere else, these are just my thoughts.
Funny word play does not mean it is true. Proove to me that we are created by a divine power when theres plenty of evidence supporting evolution. Just because some guy who wrote the bible didn't agree with this life choice does not mean its wrong. Remember we created religion so it is biased to the times it was created and it doesn't work with the current age. There no convincing proof showing it being natural or unnatural its simply a choice . Does it make it wrong no. @ Sid, I dont care how many people killed someone "in the name of God". Cults?, c'mon. Cults are not Christian. Like David Koresh, the Davidian guy. He thought he was the Messiah and such, went crazy with his cult and burned 75 people to death. That is not in the name of God, the dude was crazy and thought it was. Really you don't think that some cults has Christain foundations? Christianity and all religions at one time were cults then the became main stream and "nice" so it could draw people in. Look at the KKK and tell me im wrong lol. This is an ok explanation of Christian cults in America alone. http://www.christianet.com/bibleverses/cults.htm and http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_viol_cults.htm I bet I can find around a 200 cults linked with christianity easily and probably 1,000 if I really tried.
Actually, it was the US Government (specifically the FBI) that torched the Branch Davidians with explosive cannisters of CS gas and giant tanks equipped with flamethrowers. That's a topic for another debate, however. Putting aside religion and sexual practices (which isn't necessarily germane to the continuation of a happy marriage. See: your grandparents), what marriage boils down to is two people who are in love with one another and want to make a public (and legal) declaration that they want to spend the rest of their lives together. Who are we to deny that to any human? There was a news story not too long ago about a judge in Louisiana who refused to marry a couple because they were of differing races. That **** happened this year, in the supposed 21st-****ing-Century. Anyway, people were outraged that this upholder of the law chose to prevent these two people from getting legally married because it violated some sort of moral code of his (he later thankfully resigned). I'm certain we can all agree that the judge was in the wrong for his decision, but this is completely relevant to the gay marriage debate. Regardless of your personal beliefs, we are talking about two consenting adults who want to share in the same legal and public benefits of marriage that everyone else has the right to do. I ask again, who are we to deny them that? (and, on a personal note: **** YOU, MAINE)
Yeah, The first link easily reads that these groups "started off" and "apperared" to be Christian. If some group says they are Christian and goes crazy deciding to kill "defectors", thats a large sign that they are not true Christians, they are lost. Your second link, the guy says you have to kill a white man to be in the inner circle of his "church", once again an obvious sign that they arent Christian. All these cults pretty much disguise themselves as Christian, or use it. They even may start off as a Christian church, but their beliefs get all crazy and then the leaders begin to think they are prophets, "they usually have a drug history too, like David Koresh and others". Then they start to take over the people they won over by making them think they were true Christians and that God is telling them to do something with him being the messenger. They are all crazy. Theres plenty of proof evolution is false too. Top Ten Scientific Facts : Evolution is False and Impossible., page 1 Anyway, lets get back to the topic at hand please.
Thers no "true" Christains Zombie if you believe in Jesus and follow the teaching in the Bible than you are Christain . Whether you go crazy or not doesn't make you less of a Christain. Thats like saying hey Homosexuals are now not humans lol they are humans but have just made a different choice. So if the interpret the teachings different they are not Christian? I never read that anywhere and I think you just made it up to say Christains are all good and not bad lol. Your link "disproving" evolution is stupid. Do you honestly believe that all the animals on Earth just spawned instantley and worked perfectly with no problems? If you do you're a moron because how do you explain fossil evidence and or reamains of more primative animals with similar DNA to existing animals but with different features. So are you saying that these birds with similar DNA are in no way related? If you don't thing evolution makes sense then how do you suppose life is on Earth lol? Ive never seen a animal just pop into reality out of thin air have you? The only explainations in that link were quote"well thats just silly " or thats "impossible" when the fact of the matter is that animals will change due changes in their surroundings. This is an issue with creation stories because theres solid proof saying otherwise. "They are all crazy." Hey something we agree on :] So baising you opinion off of religious teachings from thousands of years ago seems ok too you? You think Homosexuality is wrong because a group of authors wrote a bunch of stories and they decided that this was wrong. Why do you follow the advice of long dead people who do not know how the world works today? Find me something saying homosexuality is anymore dangerous than a heterosexual relation ship. Give me a real reason its wrong . Don't just say "well god doesn't like it so I don't either". Think for yourself instead of letting outdated stories rule your opinion.
@Zombie, can you tell me the difference between the gay rights struggle now and the Civil Rights struggle some 40 years ago? I know you've said that you only "feel" that gays shouldn't have the same equal rights as anyone else, but if you were in a voting booth about to cast your vote on whether gays should have equal rights as anyone else, how would you vote? Obviously, your gut is telling you they shouldn't have rights, so I would expect you (now I broaden this analogy to all against giving a human being the fundamental rights as anyone else) to vote against this. What you are doing is declining gays their rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Why would anyone do this?