Evil exists for many reasons. Some believe it's due to the Adam and Eve story, others say because it helps build character. We need some bad in this world so that we know God couldn't be existent. That's why there's faith. Faith is the key. Simply put.
Wait what? We need it to prove he doesn't exist? So by evil's existence, God is disproved? And yet despite this we are supposed to use blind faith to say that even with this evil that says he can't exist, he does. You sort of confused me there when you say that evil disproves his existence and then said faith ignores the evil and says he does anyway. Anyway, evil doesn't really exist in my opinion. Moreso, people do things that are morally unjust in the opinion of our society, and so these acts are labeled as evil. From any other perspective, there is no evil. As in, if I go into war and kill the enemy, the enemy will see me as evil, where my country sees me as a hero doing good. (sort of like how the masterchief is loved by the UNSC and called a demon by the covenant lol). It's not evil, it's just your perception on morality.
It does exist, you just need to stay away from it and really struggle to achieve goals and in some cases believe in God, considering you're an atheist I won't get to far into the topic of believing in God. It's not evil, it's just your perception on morality.[/QUOTE] If the world was purely good then no one would believe in God. Christianity grew stronger during the "evil" times of the world, now it is declining because we can live longer and suffer less. "Steal from me once shame on you, steal from me twice shame on me." That quote makes sense when put in this debate, we only grow through bad things.
>.> (Nonconfrontational): You said earlier that God had saved you from being raped. But God is all-knowing and all-powerful. Are you now suggesting that God allowed you to be almost-raped in order to make you a better person? Isn't that a little...sick? Surely you would be revolted if some parents knowingly allowed their children to almost get raped because they wanted to make them a better person. In that same idea, why would God allow all the **** that's happened in the world recently (the two World Wars in the last century, the Holocaust, car accidents (or any type of accident), natural disasters, etc.). If God really did love us as his creations, then why would he allow all these horrible things to happen to us? According to your argument, when 70 million people die in two horrible wars, when Hitler concocts the most macabre genocide in the history of mankind; he's trying to make the world a better place, because people being happy is a bad thing. Gee, I feel better already.
God does this for several reasons: to bring the God-person relationship closer, to have the person learn from suffering, and I'm sure there may be more... and if he has to go to extremes to do so, then he'll do it. First of all, those are population limiting factors... we don't wanna overgrow the population limit. Second, God shows you how cruel the world can really be.. how much everything can suck.. And on the other hand, he shows you how awesome life can be. You can't just look at one side of it and base everything off of that. You're being rather redundant, I think I answered this already. No, arrogance is a bad thing. If all you do is go in your car each day, sit at work, eat a good meal, watch tv, go to football games, and go to sleep each day then you aren't really grasping how much worse things could be. However, if your dog dies, if your house is destroyed by a hurricane, if you actually know what hurt is, then you can actually live a life of true happiness... just as long as you don't forget it. Good.
God kills people, twists pins in our hands and disables us JUST so we will believe he exists? I guess not to make it too suspicious, he also inflicts the same pains upon Christians, even though unnecessary, so that it doesn't create a noticeable trend disturbance. In fact, I bet if you checked the percentage of people that were Christians affected by hurricanes last year in your state, it would be about the same as the percentage of Christians in your state. But this wouldn't be because of natural distribution, because god specifically chose for those Christians to lose their houses so that the hurricane would look "legit". Thanks god. Calling the Holocaust a "Population limiting factor" shows how misinformed you really are. Human culling, really?
How necessary was it to do it in the most gruesome manner possible? (Holocaust) And if I knew that all of these bad things happened or were allowed to happen BECAUSE of your God...it might not make me question his existence, but it would definitely make me question his ethics. But supposedly that's the same thing.
It helps bring you closer to God and your friends. You learn who are your true friends, who would really sacrifice themselves just for you, who God is, etc... it's not just so we will believe he exists. Everyone needs reminders. It's not only that! Man-kind has been through war, battles, and blood, and it's something to counter balance the first covenant between man and God. God made an agreement with Adam and Eve, and it just goes to show how arrogant human-kind can be, so God made things seemingly terrible so we can learn. Actually learn, instead of being ignorant fools. Yes, the Holocaust was horrific, but it's another horrible thing that we need to learn from. An almost necessity. First of all, that isn't necessarily the most gruesome manner possible. Don't hear me wrong, it was bad, but it was not the worst. Secondly, the Holocaust was something that people learned from... People learned just how far some radicals are willing to go, and still think it's right to kill millions of people. Yes, it was a terrible lesson that had to be learned for the future of mankind. "Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." "Give me a fruitful error any time, full of seeds, bursting with its own corrections. You can keep your sterile truth for yourself." ~Vilfredo Pareto It's called learning. Again, don't just look at the bad sides, there is a justifiable hand to it all.
So I'm gonna go blow up a building, because I want to let the families of the victims know that I'm trying to get them closer to me.
You can't expect people to just forgive you for doing evil... You can't stab someone and just say sorry... IF God does these things through other people, and it could just be that God started the world spinning and stupid people act upon stupid ethics, then it has a larger meaning to it. A shepherd will break the leg of a disobedient sheep. He'll then take care of it so that they grow a better bond. I'm not saying that you should go bomb someone's place just because you think they need to know you. Who are you to know? Are these people so evil that you need to do evils against them? God can do it, you can't because he fully knows what he's doing, and you don't. If you think bombing someone's house is good, then you're sadly mistaken. If God thinks killing millions of his own creations so that all of humankind can learn from a tragedy so that the entire race won't be wiped out by some future act of terrorism, then he knows exactly what he's doing. No, my sole point is not that "godcandoit and u cant"... There's more to it.
So it's unfathomable for me, a mere human, to have a plan for a larger scheme in the lot of things, but the first thought in your head when a 'God-event' happens is that God has automatically has a plan. Was the sheep so evil that the shepherd needed to break its leg? Then why wouldn't he just save them the not-as-sadistic way? And that would be if it were accidental; but according to the omniscience idea, the fault would lie on him due to negligence (at best). It's like starving a family until one of them dies, and then giving them food. Then you say, "You must be loyal to me, for I saved you from starving. I showed you compassion." No. What you're saying is that God is above his own moral edicts he himself supposedly set, while he preaches that man is evil (etc.).
Yup. Disobedient is a better word, but yup. If you made 20 halo forge maps, and they decided to go against you saying nobody created them and that they were just created by some weird evolution thing, wouldn't you be just a tiny bit angry? You should fear God, not say he's a sadistic lunatic. He shows mercy. No, God is God, man is man, there's a difference between God and man... whether there be a large border or a small border in different areas...
Well, I would be freaked out by the fact that my 20 forge maps somehow achieved sentience. Regardless. Let's follow my amazingly-artificially-intelligent 20 Forge Maps. They start claiming that they don't believe in me. So I stick the hard drive that they're in into a microwave until they start saying that they believe in me. And that's a perfectly justified response to their claims, because I was angry?
The reason shepherds break the legs of wandering lambs is to protect them. Whenever a sheep or lamb is injured they require constant care and attention, which the shepherd provides. During the time it takes the sheep or lamb to heal, it has learned the voice of the shepherd and a unique bond is formed. I know that sounds terrible, but for the ignorant it sometimes takes a big break for something wonderful to happen. For example, a guy may go through the worst relationship of his life only to have it end and a new one begin with someone that truly cares for him. A wake-up call if you will. For some, it's a bucket of water, for others their world has to come crashing down on them. Of course, that's up to interpretation. Is it divine control seeking you out by breaking you spiritually into order for something wonderful to happen? I don't think so, I see a list of actions and events that coincide with each other, like the chain of events that lead to a car accident. I don't even have to look at the evil in the world today. I just have to look at the creation itself. Why would God create something which he loved so dearly, let them betray him so terribly, and then condemn them? You wanna know what the truly sickening answer is? God is selfish. God wants us to choose him, to love him. How sickening that we should be faced with such a fate for His glory. I'd rather burn than serve a God who so graciously delivered me into this world to meet His needs. That's the answer y'all, we're just tools, used and abused. If I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that God existed, I would rather not have existed in the first place. To be faced with such a choice is...terrible.
No, then you'd be forcing them to believe. Look, why don't you step into his shoes? You're sitting in a sandbox just wondering what to do.. when all the sudden, you think about making 20 toy soldiers. Once you've created them, you decide to tell them that you're their creator and that they should respect you. Then, after watching generation after generation of death and life, you come to find that there are two million toy soldiers. They've all decided to create their own stories behind their existences, and only about 1/100th of the entire population actually believes you made them. Now, out of compassion and sympathy, you decide to send someone down to help replenish their belief in you. So this someone does everything you've asked, and is gone within 30 years. You then wait again. More generations after generations of blood, wars, happiness, death, and come to realize that the population of toy soldiers has nearly tripled since the last time you saw them. Now, only 1/3rd of the population believes in you. This time, you say, "No, I've given them proof, and those that deny me will remain in arrogance as they would much prefer. Why should I help them if they don't choose to believe in me with a lack of "proof", as they say it?" Now you watch all those below you in your sandbox, as they lead strenuous lives of work, pain, and choose not to believe in anything other than themselves. Who's selfish now?
Both of us are selfish. I'm not denying the selfishness of humanity, that's why there's so much evil in the world. Humans. My point, and it is undeniable, is that humans, according to the Bible, were created for one purpose. To glorify God. That's it. He wants us to choose to love him, but gives lack of proof. How can he condemn us? Because we doubt? We're only human, how could he expect any different? He made us that way. Like what the hell, he knew that we were gonna ****-up and that most of us were going to burn. Then why make creation? Why let so many suffer? (Because it makes the love that He wants so much better, better true love from a few than forced love from all) I'd rather not have existed at all, because the end result of my life is not my life at all, but to to live for Him. That defines selfish on the grandest scale imaginable, worse than a kid and a magnifying glass. But of course, this is the God of the Bible, that humans wrote about. EDIT: As for the eurothwhatever dilemma, Basically it's kind of both. The morality is part of God's nature, but he commanded it and therefore it is moral. If it was moral and God commanded it then that implies that morality dictates God in a sense. But, if God commanded it and therefore it is moral, that implies that God may not be totally moral. I think it's best to answer the question this way, God is moral and He has commanded it.
Many of you are making ignorant claims. If you wish to make these claims of this and that about anything that you criticize at least know more about what your making statements about. God lets us go through times of storm to strengthen us and the reason why people die serves a purpose. The first thing is WE ALL HAVE A FREE WILL God isnt going to interfere with our free will if one of you wanted to kill the other then you could. Imagine if you didnt have a free will (this is of course stating that God is real) then imagine not being able to commit sin but in order to stop that you would have to stop it at the root which is an evil thought. Say whenever we thought of something evil we would get zapped. Imagine lying in a fedal position trying not to think of something evil or sinful then knowing the human mind while focusing on not trying to think about something you think about it even more. God allows us to go through trials because he loves us. The reason why I say that is because this is never going to be a perfect world so God lets us go through trials to strengthen us not to break us. he promised that he would never give us more than we could bear. And he lets us to know that he is still there during the trials that we face that he is still there just look at a physical storm when a hurricane comes your way or any other storm did the sun ever for one moment stop shining. When it's night time and you cannot see outside did the sun go out?? NO, god lets us to know that while we are going through something that he will always be there and that is called faith.
God is not selfish. No, there is so much more to it... Maybe you should go back and reread all of my posts. You're saying that you'd rather not exist than give credit to your creator... yet you say God is selfish... God created us from the start! How could you POSSIBLY say he's selfish? He sent down his only son to die and to be crucified at the stakes of arrogant people, JUST so he could save humans from suffering, just to forgive people and their foolish mistakes. God can suffer too, you know, but he doesn't want mindless souls coming into his kingdom so that they can pounce about in ignorance. He wants them to learn what joy, sadness, trust, disgust, fear, anger, anticipation, optimism, disappointment, love, confusion, remorse, submission, contempt, awe, aggressiveness, hate, happiness, and all these different feelings ACTUALLY mean! ...And I find it funny that anyone could call any one of these emotions a simple chemical reaction...
I'm not making ignorant claims at all. I would take a bet that I know more about the Bible then everyone in here. That's an arrogant statement, but one I will abide by until proven otherwise. If we didn't have a free will, then we wouldn't be able to freely think. We wouldn't be robots by any means, but we would be without evil thought. According to your logic people go through shitstorms, so that God can strengthen them, yet I see people turning away from faith. Of course, in the bad times people do turn to the church, but why is that? Is it really someone seeing the error of their ways or are they just fearful of their own mortality? They are seeking comfort, but why? Prove to me otherwise. For the second time, I'm not saying that my actions wouldn't be selfish. For the second time, you're ignoring my point. "He created us!" "How could He be selfish!?" - Again, think why He created us. By my logic I could say that sending Christ to die was an effort to save face. So please counter my logic, that's what I want you to do. Is our creation the result of God's selfishness? See, I doubt you've been to heaven, so how would you know exactly what kinds of souls God wants? How do you know that God wants is to learn these things? These certainly aren't listed in any verse of the Bible. It seems to me that you compiled this list of emotions to prove something to me. Now, I've already told you what the single purpose of creation is. To glorify God. Those emotions didn't exist before creation, so I know He didn't create things to experience emotions He created. By that logic, we were created to be left to our own devices. Which is counter to the glorification of God. Disprove my point of creation's purpose. I guarantee you cannot because it is a profound Biblical truth. So you're saying that they occur without a chemical reaction? I don't think either of us understand the subject of the brain well enough to be making any statements about it. Suffice to say, let's not get into the whole 'it's too complex' argument.