Debate God

Metaphors

You can use the word "metaphor", but what that really means is that the creation stories in the bible are not what actually happened. The story of creation is in direct conflict with the abundance of evidence that points towards evolution. Are you saying that the Adam and Eve story is a metaphor for evolution? Does this metaphor sound more similar to evolution in the less crude Hebrew version? How do you pick and choose what is fact and what is metaphor?

The only way to reconcile the Christian Bible with the theory of evolution is accept some parts as truth(existence of God, Jesus is the son of God, etc.) while saying that other parts(the ones that no longer match what we have learned to be true) are mere metaphors.

 

what i believe.

i do believe that God created this Earth, perhaps Universe. Yet i doubt the bible is entirely true. Some stories were created to explain things that science could not explain at the time. other stories i think were created, but may not be entirely false, as guidelines for us to live by.

basically i refuse to believe that us everything around us could have came about because of some random and extremely chance incident of matter and energy.

 

What's great about Hebrew (and especially in the Bible itself) is that practically the whole thing IS metaphor. If it wasn't coming to teach you something, why would they (or He, depending on which you believe) write it in there? It's not just a random storybook, that much is obvious. You don't need to pick and choose which is which, you just need to try to interpret it to fit into your life. There might not even be a set reason for a metaphor. A reason I like the band "Tool", even though I don't like any other music of that sort, is the way they use metaphors but even say that they are meant to be interpreted to fit into yourself. "It's a wrench.... we are... your tool; use us as a catalyst in your process of finding out whatever it is you need to find out, or whatever it is you're trying to achieve.Source"

 

You can't honestly expect to say something like that and get away with it. You know you're going to make the other end angry, so why say it at all?

Message to Everyone: If you really want this thread to prosper, then don't throw words around that might anger/hurt someone..

...and no, ScarecrowXavier, you aren't the only one...

 

Evolution IS evidence against against the existence of god, you can not believe it all you want, but any open-minded Theist who also believes in evolution has to agree that the fact we weren't created makes god less likely: they'd rationalise it as "god being behind evolution".

I didn't consider it at all offensive. If you'll only agree with things that prove god though, I really couldn't care less that you're offended. I found the fact that you think i'm desperate for attention hilariously ironic ironic ironic though.

 

First of all, I edited my post way before you even replied... So you should probably change that reply... Secondly:

Well, you don't seem to know about theists too much, then. People take things differently, and I believe many theists think God is behind evolution. Your statement that evolution proves God doesn't exist, is like saying fish don't exist because they live in water. It's two facts put into one messed up sentence that you take to be completely true, when really, it has many flaws. Flaws that you are seemingly willing to fight against, without any ounce of agreement towards the other side of the debate.

That's why you're an atheist.

I'm starting to wonder if it's really the topic we're discussing, or the people in it. I'm just trying to help this thread and you have to go making it personal. Great, that's what I just overbearingly love about this debate, the people that try to sound intelligent by making personal insults at the other debator.

The difference between you and me is that we're both hypocrites, but I'm willing to see that and change something. You, on the other hand, aren't showing any improvement.

Now, can we get on topic, or are you going to keep blabbering on about me?

 

Where is the evidence that includes God as a mechanism of evolution?

That's not what defines an atheist.

This happens in every single forum thread at some point. It's not topic specific, it's just the natural breakdown of discussion to insulting each other and eventually comparing something to Hitler/Nazis.

Unfortunately, in this particular debate, much of the support for God's existence is based upon personal belief. When people try to present their beliefs as evidence, it is met with the same incredulity as evidence supporting a scientific hypothesis.

 

I doubt it. If you want to insult me then edit it out, don't expect me to do the same.

That's exactly what I said. The bible says that god created humans in a magical garden, but evolution has proven that humans evolved over the course of millions of years. In relation to this evidence, I said that many theists would:

It seems I do know Theists.

I said evolution was one of the factors that make it a logical conclusion there is no god.

What flaws exactly? How does evolution not make god "less likely"?

I'm an Athiest because I don't care if you're offended when being stubborn?

That's funny, because everything below this has nothing to do with god.

Way to say "lets get back on topic/ be professional" when at the same time attacking my intelligence. Now if that isn't hypocrisy, I don't know what is.

This thread is probably going to grind to a halt with Nitrous' segmented god discussion. We'll see.

 

I actually agree with Erico on this one; i am a theist and i believe in evolution

i dont quite know what you're saying here. to me it seems like you are portraying religion and science as two sides of a proverbal coin and that the truth can only lie on one side or the other.
the existence of science doesn't disprove religion, they can work together to make a perfectly coherent conjecture.

while you could say that the incorperation of god is ignorant because the existence of god is an ignorant concept, is it really? if someone thinks that the scientific explanation of the big bang is completely true, just influenced by god, does that make him ignorant? i dont think so

 

No, the existence of religion unfortunately impairs science. Science strives to understand and characterize the unknown. Most importantly, it seeks to advance humanity. Religion is not supposed to change. It is supposed to be steadfast and unmoving, a basis for people's beliefs. Science threatens the continuing existence of religion because it seeks to expose and explain the blanks in which God resides.

Do you have any evidence that the big bang was influenced by a god?

Believing something doesn't necessarily mean someone is ignorant. But don't forget that "ignorance is bliss."

 

I... did... edit... it... out... Maybe you didn't read that fine print that I conveniently highlighted red... I'll go get it:

I said some insulting things in the previous edit... But then I edited it again...
Do you understand now?...
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You are so incredibly wrong with that statement. It's all metaphorical... maybe you should go reread Insane's whole post about metaphors.......
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Here's how I view it:
IF ANYTHING, evolution is God's way of "fooling" humans into thinking there is no God. From my point of view, he's fooled you pretty good.

I just replied to this (look up)

Well, you certainly aren't a theist.

That's funny, you're claiming I'm a hypocrite, while you're being a hypocrite. Wait.. didn't I just comment about this just one post ago...?
-.-

Oh wait, is this the second time that I need to reference the post I just made about hypocrisy?
-.-



Sorry if I seem like a jerk, but I'm not in the best of moods. It's late, I'm tired... lol sry..

 

Why would god want to fool humans? What would be his MO for doing this?? It seems like certain poeple are being fooled and not others.

 

Evolution does not disprove the existence of a god, it just calls into question Genesis and via that the Bible and via that religion.

Do you have any reasons (not even evidence, just a reason) to support that evolution is just a trick? Cause that's the first time I've heard anyone claim that.

 

Genesis up to Abraham is all metaphorical. From Abraham and on there are various metaphors thrown in, along with every part that's chosen coming to teach you something that applies to yourself (as mentioned before). Again, as I said before, "yom" or "day" can mean any given length of time. Along with that, notice that there was no sun until a few "days" in...so obviously this can't be on a 24-hour scale. Also, dinosaurs (giant snake with legs...) certainly existed. The "day" probably means "a long time". There's nothing that doesn't support God's existence in the Bible in Genesis. Man's "creation" was probably evolution as well, following this thinking.

 

But why do you get to claim that part of the bible is metaphorical? It was believed to be completely true 500 years ago. If that trend continues will the gospels one day be considered metaphorical as well?

God created the sun on the fourth day. He created plants on the third day. Anyone see a massive problem for the plants? The plants need the sun to carry out photosynthesis so that they can grow and live. If a "day" is actually much longer than an earth day, then the plants would all die without the sun to provide energy or animals to help them proliferate.

Now I'm sure God kept the plants alive with his magic, but a single fault in an idea calls into question the whole.

In Genesis it says that god created man in his image, which means we looked exactly like we do today unless you're implying that God was a single-celled organism from which all life subsequently evolved over the course of billions of years. But the problem with that is that he put all the other forms of life down on the planet BEFORE humans. That would more than likely mean that they would likewise evolve into forms completely unrecognizable to those of today.

I'm thoroughly confused now. I think we need a flow chart or something.

 

You're still not getting what I'm saying. The idea is to make a difference in your life. And it's obviously not all metaphor because Abraham was a real person. Now, what stories they chose and if they actually happened and how they were twisted into the writing is a different story, and that's where you take the meaning out of. The "beginning" is one of the most useless parts, so it's written pretty short. It's not like a chronological scientific report on the beginning of time. For all I know, it was written by man (if it was, it was probably Moses...who was obviously not stupid), which would certainly explain some of the more in depth examples. But anyway, you're missing the whole point, which is to make a difference in yours and other people's lives. It's not to serve some guy up in the clouds and if you're good you go to heaven and live in bliss and if you're bad your subject to the devil raping you every day. The language used in the Bible is purposely very vague to try to apply to as many people as possible throughout as much time as possible.

 

So if the point is merely to make a difference (I'm assuming positive) in yours and other people's lives, would you agree that religion is outdated and we should all pursue secular humanism?

 

I disagree, the beginning is one of the most important aspects of anything. How are we to know where to go if we don't know where we've been? How can mankind continue to advance if we don't know where we began?

Moses presented the Ten Commandments. He had absolutely nothing to do with the actual writing of any of the Old Testament.

You don't need religion to make a difference in a person's life.

People are capable of doing good without being scared into performing the action. I find it disgusting that people claim they are Christians only because they'll burn in "hell" otherwise. If you live in fear then you will NEVER be free to live your life.

 

Not quite, but kind of. There's a whole lot of wisdom in there, and this is really just scratching the surface on the amount of depth there is. Personally, I've found myself 10x as happy as I used to be since I realized what it's all about, and I think that's the idea of it. It gives you a guideline that keeps you doing good stuff all the time, there's no way to forget or slack off, really. And it's just little things like learning a sense of restraint, enjoying other people's enjoyment, saying thank you, holding doors...it really depends on the person I think, but considering I can read the original words I don't see it obsolete at all.

Also, I think tradition is hugely important. That's also a decent part of the Bible and something that's been put down a whole lot over the last years.

@Shiruken (sp?): You're still completely missing what I'm trying to say.