The Problem With The God Debate The problem with the god debate isn't that it isn't a meaningful debate or that it hasn't brought some wisdom or change in opinion, character or reasoning; its that it is far too broad to be tracked coherently. It's sloppy, rude, unreadable and boring. I propose the locking of the god debate is in order and to replace it we will have miniature god debates that run their course and are replaced by newer topics that will either build more indepthly upon the previous or start a new line of thinking all together. The first of the new god debates is titled "The Beginning." It it titled this for a reason so do not deviate from the set OP. In this thread we will discuss, the creation of the universe, god's role in it, the scripture involving creation and the logical leaps of faith that theists and atheists alike have to make in order for their world view to function properly. Proposed Topics: Religion In Society Historicity of the Bible Infinity and God's Role Ethics Good luck, have fun and without further adieu; The God Debate. ---------------------- So basically this is a debate about our origins. How we got here, why we got here and who was here first. This isn't a debate on where we are going scientifically or theologically. Just stick to Genesis (or any other creation story) or science. Suggested Topics Creationism vs. Science; God and Logic; First Cause Why such a simple debate? Why a debate that has been used so much? This is just a warmup thread and an introduction to our first formal debate. You are not required to cite your sources in any of these debates. It's a pain and most people don't even check the sources to make sure we weren't lying so there's just really no point. To start us off I will begin with an argument against the first cause: The first cause does not indicate god's existence because an effect without a cause or an effect that comes from timelessness does not have to be unique, it does not have to be one; it can be many, it does not indicate divine will and it does not show anything but "X happened therefore god must have done it because its only possible for him." This is foolish and shows nothing except that your definition of god shows him to be the reason, not any objective source of knowledge.
Thank you Nitrous, this change has been coming for some time now if you ask me as for my input, i dont believe in either. i can acknowledge that either possibility could have happened, but i doubt what actually happened was exactly as either side describes it (god/big bang). what i hope happened was that god created the universe through the big bang, but that might just be my christian/atheism speaking.
I see it as this that we are or have been created in a never ending cycle. All the universe is put to one point from being divoured by a giant black hole which put everything ito a single point and then it exploded and is at the state we see it today as ever exspanding. Until we are sucked into a super black hole again to repeat the process of condensing and then exspaning we will continue to exspand like and exsplosion where space can be created and move faster than the speed of light. This does not mess with Einstiens theory so space can move faster than light. So long story short I think theres a never ending cycle which is responsible for the universe but what orriginaly created it is not totaly known. An event could have caused it and that could be named god but then you'd need to know what came before "god" so this would put us in a paradox which we may never solve.
From my studies I believe alot of religious Ideas would agree with you. The basics of Hinduism is that the Universe is nothing but the Gods day- dreaming of the Cosmos. After a while they grow weary, drifting into a dreamless sleep, thus destroying the Universe as we know it. After millions of years they awake again, and begin to day-dream of the Universe, creating a never ending cycle of death and rebirth. The Koran also makes reference to the idea of a Big Bang. I cannot directly quote this at the moment, but I know in the first translation of the Koran, it says something similar to, "And can the nonbelievers not see that at one point all of us were at one point together until we were clove asunder." Basically saying that all matter was together in one spot until we were spread by something. Then later it makes reference to the smoke and dust in the sky and Allah calling upon it to pull all of it's pieces together into groups to create the stars and the Earth. So I can agree with your argument I would say, I'm not going to say it is the one and only definition of the creation of the Universe, but I find it suprising that these two religions kind of support your argument. Maybe they knew something that we are only now beginning to understand.
I exist. I can perceive energy and matter through my senses. So either A) My reality is a lie, and I'm receiving stimuli through a source I cannot detect or perceive, whether matter, energy or a third unknown medium or B) matter and energy exist, and reality is through them. The question remains then, where did matter and energy come from. The Cyclic model (Any of several cosmological models in which the universe follows infinite, self-sustaining cycles (for example: an eternity of Big Bang-Big crunches)) would seemingly solve this problem, but the question remains what created the first matter/ energy that started the cycle. Imagine the big bang like the fingers in your hand, first resting in your palm, then extending, then returning to your palm to form a big crunch. Even an endless cycle must have required some beginning, because even in a perfect system where all matter and energy is contained, that doesn't explain how the original matter/ energy arrived. God has the same flaw as the universe model. If god exists he exists AS something: Energy, matter or an unknown third medium. Which isn't explained away by "He's god" (it's sexist too, but whatever). So the real question is, how can something come from nothing, or something exist without being created? It really is THE question.
Matter and energy were created at the momement of the big bang. It's possilbe that countless other universes existed before "our" universe was "born". The matter and energy could have come from a "parent" universe or was created in our big bang itself. Where did the original matter and energy come from? That question will probably never be answered. Just keep in mind that life came after the fact. In other words, life is the product of chemistry and evolution. Did the concept of god exist when dinosaurs ruled the earth? No. Only after we evolved the frontal lobe and gained the abilty to reason, did humans create the concept of god. There were many MO's to create the concept of god. Humans had a much tougher life a few thousand years ago. The idea of god gave them hope, guidence, ethics, reason & order. The fact that religion and god still exist today, is just simply a reflection of the primitive stage of our personal evolution as a species.
How does everything explode from a black hole, seeing as how light can't even escape them? Or that could mean we were all one in Adam's body and then were "cloven asunder" by taking his rib bone and making Eve, then spread from there. Since the words "at one point" and "all of us" aren't clearly defined it could really mean anything. And I don't see how the smoke and dust reference relates to the big bang. reasoning behind this? I mean of course it's possible, (almost)anything is possible. There could have been a previous universe and in it there lived giant monsters with twelve spikes on their heads, but we'll never know. life doesn't come from evolution. Evolution is how life works once it's here. It did and didn't, in a way. It didn't in the way you are thinking, that no one was around to think it so it didn't exist. However since God is a being not a concept, the "concept" did exist. It's kind of like "if a tree falls and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?", of course it does because it releases energy into the air creating sound waves regardless of whether or not there is some one's ear drum to interpret it.
I've been meaning to respond to this thread but I keep forgetting. What came first; Pythagoras or the Pythagorean therom? Some would argue that the math was always there, Pythagoras just showed it to us. I argue the opposite. The universe doesn't do math. When we do math we are repeating what the universe has done; we're describing it in the best method possible. The Pythagorean therom was created for understanding our universe. Likewise, God doesn't exist in the same manner because it takes a conscious observer to make the judgment call on whether or not something exists. The universe, time, etc. do not exist unless someone is there to perceive it. (A) Because in order to determine if something exists or not, something must exist to do the determining, and (B) without an observer it wouldn't matter if it existed and would be irrelevant.
That's interesting. I really haven't actually thought of it like that. So that's like saying that log, pi, and sine/cosine weren't discovered, but developed in a manner to best explain math?
I just hope everyone is able to start from a blank slate in this thread because there are waaay too many personal accusations going around, which only leads to off topic discussions. Agreed?
true, if only people understand that their opinions arnt always right any way, maby god made a black ball for science class but then zeus threw his crappy bomb in the black ball, when it exploded it created the universe and we came lol
I like the idea of division. The God was too much. And can't loyals like their own threads? Anyway, I am more inclined to agree with the Big Bang theory.Why? Because scientists have attempted to find answers, and the theory is the result. However, I cannot prove this theory. That is one I do not say that I believe it. When it is proven as fact, I will. Unlike Christians, I do not have faith in what I read or what I am told. I believe in facts that can be proven. You can prove that water freezes at 32 Degrees F., but there are no creation stories that have been proven. At the same time, those who believe in the Bible that God created the world in 7 days.You may ask how the universe explode from nothing into something, but I ask how can an all-power being exist and create an imperfect universe? This idea seems implausible to me. I have several questions for whomever wants to answer. Who made God? If God has been here for ever, there has been an infinite amount of time since God exists to the creation of the earth; why would God wait so long?
Maybe he was making an imperfect universe? The is no reason why he has to make a perfect one. 1. What made [matter]? 2.If [matter] has been here for ever, there has been an infinite amount of time since [matter] exists to the [Big Bang]; why would [matter] wait so long [to explode]?
fo sho as for the existence of god before the big bang: it may disprove god as the catalyst, but it does not disprove god as the higher observer. also, science speculates that our universe might have come from a "parent" universe, and that the cycle of recreation and rebirth of universes has been going on indefinitley and will continue to do so. if universes have been around forever, than couldn't god exist as well?
If god wasn't the catalyst for the universe, then why speculate he exists at all? The bible clearly says that god created the universe, so god not being the catalyst that created the universe proves the bible wrong. What then makes the Christian god more likely than any absurd example I could think of? Could an almighty Unicorn god exist? Not really. We know matter exists, so there must be an explanation. We don't know god exists, so why assume anything?
So? Does this mean we can't debate them? I think God has always existed, but that's partially because of my strict Christian parents. I know this may sound immature, but why assume that god waited so long before he existed to create matter?